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Server Time: 12/1/2008 6:41:51 PM PACIFIC |
 Unbelievable PL Omaha8 Hand, mroban, 26. Aug 2003 08:38 | ||
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| This one is for you 4POKER. This happened a few days ago playing low blind PL Omaha8 at UB. I was playing very solid and had eked out a small $6 profit after an hour and then this hand occurred (this is purely from memory, so some of the details may be fuzzy). I was dealt Ah2x5xKh in the BB. Obviously I like the hand. Everyone limps and I do the say. The flop comes with a made low (I think 378, if memory serves) rainbow with one heart. SB checks, I bet the pot, all fold except 4 players, two of them who I had read as extremely good players. The first of the good players reraised the pot. 2nd good player calls and so do I. The other callers fold the re-raise. So we are 3 handed going into the turn. Turn brings a Qc. There is now a 4 flush on board. I have basically no shot at a high here but I have the made low hand. Stupidly, I raise the pot and am immediately re-raised. 2nd good player calls and so do I. There is now quite a lot in the pot. The river is Kc giving me a pair of kings, which is clearly not good enough for the high and a made flush for someone. I check, first good player bets the pot, 2nd player calls and so do I for the rest of my stack. There was now over $100 in the pot. I had put in $33 (my whole stack). I knew there was a good shot I was going to get quartered, but at the river, I had to play the hand still right? The question is, with the flop as it was, should I have realized after getting reraised and called by a third player that it was likely there was at least one if not two other nut lows on board? What else could they be reraising with on a flop like that? Turns out, both other players had A2 and both had KKQQ. So they split the high and we got thirded on the low. I got back like $17 and change. So...should I have just checked and folded on the turn after the pot size raise? My mistake was increase the pot size when realistically i couldn't win more than the low. What is the general rule in this situation? I built my stack back up to my buyin and lamented that I played really good poker and thanks to this hand didn't have a winning session. Can I realistically get away from this hand in the future or is this just a freak occurrence? | ||
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| Re: Unbelievable PL Omaha8 Hand...(LONG reply), 4 POKER, 26. Aug 2003 11:09 | ||
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| on 26. Aug 2003 08:38 mroban wrote: > This one is for you 4POKER. This happened a few days ago playing low blind PL > Omaha8 at UB. I was playing very solid and had eked out a small $6 profit after > an hour and then this hand occurred (this is purely from memory, so some of the > details may be fuzzy). > > I was dealt Ah2x5xKh in the BB. Obviously I like the hand. Everyone limps and > I do the say. The flop comes with a made low (I think 378, if memory serves) > rainbow with one heart. SB checks, I bet the pot, all fold except 4 players, > two of them who I had read as extremely good players. The first of the good > players reraised the pot. 2nd good player calls and so do I. The other callers > fold the re-raise. > > So we are 3 handed going into the turn. Turn brings a Qc. There is now a 4 > flush on board. I have basically no shot at a high here but I have the made low > hand. Stupidly, I raise the pot and am immediately re-raised. 2nd good player > calls and so do I. There is now quite a lot in the pot. The river is Kc giving > me a pair of kings, which is clearly not good enough for the high and a made > flush for someone. I check, first good player bets the pot, 2nd player calls > and so do I for the rest of my stack. > > There was now over $100 in the pot. I had put in $33 (my whole stack). I knew > there was a good shot I was going to get quartered, but at the river, I had to > play the hand still right? > > The question is, with the flop as it was, should I have realized after getting > reraised and called by a third player that it was likely there was at least one > if not two other nut lows on board? What else could they be reraising with on a > flop like that? > > Turns out, both other players had A2 and both had KKQQ. So they split the high > and we got thirded on the low. I got back like $17 and change. > > So...should I have just checked and folded on the turn after the pot size > raise? My mistake was increase the pot size when realistically i couldn't win > more than the low. What is the general rule in this situation? > > I built my stack back up to my buyin and lamented that I played really good > poker and thanks to this hand didn't have a winning session. Can I > realistically get away from this hand in the future or is this just a freak > occurrence? Hey Mroban, Good post. What I would do in a situation like that, especially because it is PL and not limit, is........ "check" the flop. First because, you had said that "everyone" has limped in preflop. And when the flop comes up 8-7-3, yes, you did flop the nut low, but at that moment you have no redraw to a high hand and can get "bricked" (counterfeited) on the turn if an Ace or a Duece falls. (true you would still have the 5 in your hand for backup but it wouldn't be the nuts either). When I get a flop like that and I am in your position (BB and pretty much first to act).......I like to check the flop.....see who is going to bet, and who and "how many" are going to call, *especially* when it's pot limit, and I also want some info if now someone raises it here as well and "how many" AFTER that raise are going to call, if any. That will give me much more indication on how much "value" ($) I can expect on putting my money in when getting a piece of the pot with a low hand. If you "lead" at the flop there is a good chance that a player who is acting right after you will raise the pot to an amount that could drive out the rest of the field.....and that's not what you want to happen here when basically all you have is a nut low (that can be counterfeited on the turn), with almost no runner, runner redraw for high. If the flop came up with a low and say a flush draw for you, your holding would have a better chance in improving IF the pot was raised after you bet the flop. See what happens on the flop (how many players are still hanging aroung for the turn card), and when the turn card comes up (if it's still a clean card for your low), then also take note if say, the board got paired, and now you "hear" from somebody else. You then may have a much easier time continuing especially if there are 2 or more players who will be contesting for the high side of the pot. My answer to your question is "check" the flop instead of betting the pot...........as another reason for doing that (and it's a very important reason)..........is, you WANT the others behind you to be ABLE (moneywise) to call an amount that another player may bet here on the flop. LET somebody else bet the flop for you (and hopefully the amount won't be too much), allow for the players behind him to call so they can put their money into the pot to draw to whatever hands they might be drawing to or currently have flopped at that time. That will give you a much better indication for your own holding AND with just about only flopping the nut low here.........you want "volume" on your holding if and when you do get quartered. If there are enough players who will be putting in money to the river (or at least enough money on the turn).......you can still show a profit from just a low hand or break out even. If you wind up taking the hand 3 handed on the flop and/or the turn, and all you have is a nut low with no high hand at all, if the pot is now bet by somebody else who puts too much money into the pot by betting an amount that will leave you at best with just half the pot but at WORST being quartered........I would "fold off" my nut low if that is all I had and didn't have much of my money invested anyway. I have been in situations where there were four people in the hand.......and ALL 4 of us had the A-2 nut low. It sucks when you have no high hand or not even a draw to the nut high (say the nut flush, or at least trips) with a chance at boating up on the end. Okay, this was limit Omaha and it was much easier to determine how much money I could possibly lose here exactly IF I got quartered or even less than that.........but in PLO8, you can lose so much more than in limit when someone bets the "pot" on the flop, turn and/or river. (yuk)!! Just try to "maneuver" the players in such a way that you can get some overcallers here to make it more correct for you to continue putting your money into a pot with just the nut low. Sometimes, it will be correct for you to throw away the nut low in certain situations, "especially" in PL. What made it even worse for you is that both those players had the nut low, but even if just one of them had the nut low with you.......with just 3 of you in there, ALL putting in a lot of money (because it was PL)......you still wound up losing much too much here. Once the turn card came up and you saw that you had no high potential...........you should have checked it again (not raised) and IF now the pot was bet for the "pot amount" and then got raised?..........you should have thrown your hand away. You have nothing here at this point and if you call the pot size bet on the turn, you'll also going to be calling ANY amount on the river (providing the board stays clean for your nut low hand), and that with only 3 players in, will and/or "could" leave you devistated when referring to your now currently chip stack. If you would have checked the flop.......check the turn........you would have a better overall picture on how much potential ($) this low hand was going to be yielding you. (or NOT yielding you). Just some things here to consider. Be careful when putting in bets in pot limit..........the game and your hands can wind up costing you more than they should. Hope this helps mroban, and better luck to you. 4 POKER | ||
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| Re: Unbelievable PL Omaha8 Hand...(LONG reply), mroban, 26. Aug 2003 12:49 | ||
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| Absolutely incredible response 4POKER. Until this time, if I hit the nut low on the flop, I automatically put in a pot sized raise figuring I had half the pot (duh). I had thought of the danger of getting bricked on the turn or river so I think I bet the flop hoping to win it right there (that must have been my intention). However, when I got the action that came next, you are 100% correct, checking the turn absolutely was the right thing to do. But in reading your response (just to make sure I understand) checking the flop gives me the information I need to read the board and will keep more players in to build the pot. that also would have allowed me to get away from the hand on the turn when it became obvious I had to shot on the high and too much danger to call a pot sized raise that big. Anyway, I think this would have been a tough hand to get away from, but I certainly could have minimized the damage. Cheap learning experience though. Thanks 4POKER. MR | ||
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| Re: Unbelievable PL Omaha8 Hand...(LONG reply), 4 POKER, 26. Aug 2003 13:00 | ||
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| on 26. Aug 2003 12:49 mroban wrote: > Absolutely incredible response 4POKER. Until this time, if I hit the nut low on the flop, > I automatically put in a pot sized raise figuring I had half the pot (duh). > > I had thought of the danger of getting bricked on the turn or river so I think I bet the > flop hoping to win it right there (that must have been my intention). However, when I got > the action that came next, you are 100% correct, checking the turn absolutely was the > right thing to do. > > But in reading your response (just to make sure I understand) checking the flop gives me > the information I need to read the board and will keep more players in to build the pot. > that also would have allowed me to get away from the hand on the turn when it became > obvious I had to shot on the high and too much danger to call a pot sized raise that > big. > > Anyway, I think this would have been a tough hand to get away from, but I certainly could > have minimized the damage. Cheap learning experience though. > > Thanks 4POKER. > > MR Hi, Well you could put in a small bet on the flop which may allow others to follow as well, and that also will give another player who holds the nut low (if he's an astute Omaha player) a sign that he is not the only low and will then act accordingly as well....(as long as he is not the type of player who will raise and reraise with just a low, then you'll be in trouble)! (Being that your flop was 8-7-3 rainbow, if you lead at it on the flop, a reasonable player may put you on A-2 with a flop that has no flush and/or is not a flop that has a made straight to it already. (know what I mean). But if you do just check the flop......you can always call if there's enough players who call behind, and/or the pot was not bet at too high a price that may leave your low in some danger, especially with only a few players remaning),.......and/or you can also wait for the turn to see what happens next (by just checking) and see if you still want to be a part of that pot. Take each street as it comes and make your best ($) decision based on the actions that are taken place again. PLO8 can be a little tricky and you'll have to play it more to get a better understanding of it all. But yeah, a pot sized bet on the flop can leave you in a bad spot now, like it unfortunately did. You'll get the hang of it, but if you don't.......try limit Omaha8. I personally prefer it to PLO8, but you can make nice money in PL as long as you bet your hands correctly and are able to know when to bail. Good luck to you. 4P- | ||
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| Re: Unbelievable PL Omaha8 Hand...(LONG reply), Andrew Wells, 26. Aug 2003 17:01 | ||
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| Good thing you mention the alternative of making a small bet out of the blind on the flop. That was my first impression having read the original post, for the very reason you indicated. Now I don't have to try and justify that action with a long reply. | ||
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| Re: Unbelievable PL Omaha8 Hand...(LONG reply), mroban, 27. Aug 2003 07:06 | ||
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| Thanks 4Poker great stuff. I am really enjoying the PL version but yeah, I do have to start playing $1/2 limit O8. I still would have gotten crushed in that hand in limit, but would not have had to put my whole stack in!! And the other thing a hand like this really emphasizes is "position, position, position". The late positions had a major informational advantage over me in this hand. Thanks again. MR | ||
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| Re: Unbelievable PL Omaha8 Hand...(LONG reply), 4 POKER, 27. Aug 2003 08:47 | ||
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| on 27. Aug 2003 07:06 mroban wrote: > Thanks 4Poker great stuff. > > I am really enjoying the PL version but yeah, I do have to start playing $1/2 limit O8. I still > would have gotten crushed in that hand in limit, but would not have had to put my whole stack in!! > > And the other thing a hand like this really emphasizes is "position, position, position". The late > positions had a major informational advantage over me in this hand. > > Thanks again. > > MR "Your welcome" mroban. ........And absolutely with the "position stuff"! If you enjoy PLO8, then keep at it. Keep in mind........you "never" have to committ your whole stack! 4P- | ||
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