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Server Time: 9/6/2008 10:16:06 AM PACIFIC |
 $20-$40 Hand, Jim Brier, 25. Aug 2003 08:51 | ||
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| I was playing in a 9-handed $20-$40 game at Oceans 11. I had just transferred to the main game from the "must-move" game. I was on the button with the Ad-Jd. Five players limped in and I raised. The big blind and the limpers called. The flop was: Td-5d-2d, giving me the nuts. The big blind bet and only a middle player called. I just called rather than raise. I think this is a good situation for a slow play. The turn was: 6c The big blind bet. The middle player raised. I made it 3 bets and only the middle player called. The river was: 6h My opponent checks. What should I do? | ||
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| Re: $20-$40 Hand, 4 POKER, 25. Aug 2003 09:04 | ||
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| BET! That being said, because you played your hand "trappy" on the flop, the bets and now the raises on the turn don't necessarily mean that someone has a set, (which would now give them a full house at the river because the board was paired)........Someone could have flopped a lower flush than yours.........top pair........or even a belly card straight, (depending on what types of players are at your game). Don't be afraid of a check-raise here.......bet the river with the nut flush. The board is still favorable for you even with the two running sixes. If you do get check-raised then that will be your decision at that time, but a bet is in order by you. 4P- | ||
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| Re: $20-$40 Hand, Schuster, 25. Aug 2003 09:25 | ||
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| I'll quote some wisdom from Roy Cooke and say the best play depends on the texture of your opponent! Given that you just moved to this game and had only a few hands to observe him, it's a bit tougher. I think that you are an underdog if you are called here. In marginal situations like this against unknown opponents, I prefer to error on the side of caution. If he checkraises you, you're in a very bad position. I would flip my hand over and hope for the best. Lee | ||
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| Re: $20-$40 Hand, Formless, 25. Aug 2003 09:40 | ||
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| Jim I just ordered your book from conjelco so I'll have a more informed opinion next week when it gets here...;-) I think you should have raised on the flop. Your opponents will call the raise so why not; you are getting good immediate $. They can't put you on a made flush yet; there are too many hands you would raise with, like JdJc, AdKs, etc. And, you will get called enough to the river to make this more profitable I think. The consequence of slowplaying on the flop is that your opponents' hands are less defined by the river so you can't bet your hand with certainty. I don't think your opponent flopped a set or he would have played it faster vs. 3 flush board. Ad6u sounds more likely, but it's a weird board and weird action so it's hard to put him on a hand. The turn and river betting sure seems like a full house is out there, so call. I think you need to be 67% certain you are good before you raise (just as a benchmark assuming you win 1 or lose 2)? What factors would you use to weigh this equation? | ||
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| Re: $20-$40 Hand, WilliamS, 25. Aug 2003 09:40 | ||
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| I would bet. If the MP player had a set on the flop he misplayed it in my opinion. With 3 flush cards on the board and only one player to act behind him he has to bet there. (He can't depend on you for the opportunity to ckraise). And he can't afford to give free cards. Due to the nature of the board, I don't think the 6 on the turn would make him two pair; therefore the running 6 on the river is not that scary, in my opinion. If it was running Jacks, I might think differently because that would be a much more likely full house for the MP player although he still should've bet the flop in my opinion. Really, the only hole cards he can reasonably have to beat you are pocket 6s with my way of thinking. But if I was always right I wouldn't be working for a living. Will | ||
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| Re: $20-$40 Hand, Piers Majestyk, 25. Aug 2003 10:01 | ||
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| I think I would have called the flop as you did as the first better was leading I would give him a chance to lead again on the turn in which I would raise except in the one instance were you say the second man raised. In this instance I would have only called him and let the BB come along for one more bet as he will probably have a hard time folding for one more bet but for two he can get away from his hand easily unless he has another flush. You get the same amount of money in the pot on the turn if he calls with little fear of a river improving the BB player. On the river if checked to you I bet as the others have said if he has a full then I think he misplayed the flop. If you had just called the turn perhaps you would have gotten two bets on the river instead of just the one. And again perhaps I would have lost an additional bet if he filled up but I would take that chance. | ||
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| Re: $20-$40 Hand, mkpoker, 25. Aug 2003 10:20 | ||
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| Check. Here, I think you can be pretty sure you've got the best hand. As has been noted, your opponent didn't play like someone who had flopped a set. **And if your opponent doesn't have you beat this point, he should know it, and will likely fold to a river bet.** The bottom line, IMHO, is that by making a river bet, you have very small chance of taking in extra $$ and a very small (but realistic) chance of losing an extra 2BB. So it's not worth it! Basically, there are four possible outcomes here, which I've listed in order of likelihood. 1. You have him beat. You Bet. He Mucks. This is probably what will happen if you bet and he doesn't have quads or a FH. 2. You have him beat. You check. You win at showdown. You win the same pot as in option 1, but with less risk. 3. He has you beat, he check-raises. Unlikely, but if he did make quads or a FH on the river, he'll check-raise you for sure. You'll probably call his raise, and then this bad beat will cost you an extra 2BB. 4. You have him beat, but he calls your river bet anyway. You win an extra 1 BB. Unlikely. He'd probably need a Q or K high flush to call a river bet. Would he call with 2-pair? No chance. With trips? Probably not. When making a bet in this situation on the river, there are two questions you need to ask yourself: 1. Are you pretty sure you have the best hand (IMHO, yes); AND 2. Is there a reasonable chance your opponent will call (IMHO, no). So, I say check. | ||
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| Re: $20-$40 Hand, noiseboy, 25. Aug 2003 16:46 | ||
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| I disagree, a lot of players won't lay down trips unless they are 100% certain they are beat, and the way the action came down, I would say trips is more likely than a full house. | ||
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| Re: $20-$40 Hand, Joe Vella, 25. Aug 2003 10:22 | ||
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| I bet. I don't put him on trips. I think he was rasing with a high diamond. | ||
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| Re: $20-$40 Hand, Jav, 25. Aug 2003 10:34 | ||
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| Even if that's the hand you put him on, you have to think about the chance that he will call if you have him beat, vs the chance that he has you beat and will check-raise. I think mkpoker said it well. You should only bet if you think that it is twice as likely that he will call your bet if he has you beat than the chance that he has you beat. I think it's very likely that the nut flush is the best hand, but I think it is pretty unlikely that the other guy will actually call the bet if he is beat. | ||
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| Re: $20-$40 Hand, Angel, 25. Aug 2003 10:44 | ||
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| I have to agree with Formless in his analysis of play on the flop. A raise from the button with a flop like this will not get nearly as much respect as it might from any other position. I suspect it'll probably get 3-bet by someone who isn't going to fall for your "raising on the flop for a free card on the turn" ploy. Raising with the nut flush on the flop is so 3/6 :) - nothing the vast majority of 20/40 players would be caught dead doing; their trickier than that - and they'll expect you to be too. That would be the time, in my opinion, to slow down and not cap it. Again, as Formless pointed out - their action after a raise would help you to define their hands. However, you didn't do that so... under the conditions you presented against an unknown player - I'd check. You win against most hands but those hands aren't going to call you often enough to invite a check raise. | ||
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| Re: $20-$40 Hand, Wren, 25. Aug 2003 10:50 | ||
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| Interesting hand. You didn't say anything about the type of player the MP player is, but assuming he's solid but not too tricky I'd put him on a smaller flush and go ahead and bet the river. I can't really see him on a boat, because this requires that he had either a set or two pair on the turn, and raising here with a flush on the board and so many players in is very dicey. Furthermore, a boat made by hitting two pair on the turn isn't likely as this would require that he came in with two pretty crappy cards. Again, all this is assuming that your opponent is a fairly tight, straightforward player. on 25. Aug 2003 08:51 Jim Brier wrote: > I was playing in a 9-handed $20-$40 game at Oceans 11. I had just transferred to > the main game from the "must-move" game. I was on the button with the Ad-Jd. > Five players limped in and I raised. The big blind and the limpers called. > > The flop was: Td-5d-2d, giving me the nuts. > > The big blind bet and only a middle player called. I just called rather than > raise. I think this is a good situation for a slow play. > > The turn was: 6c > > The big blind bet. The middle player raised. I made it 3 bets and only the > middle player called. > > The river was: 6h > > My opponent checks. What should I do? | ||
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| Re: $20-$40 Hand, Mark, 25. Aug 2003 11:05 | ||
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| Jim It's great that you're back here and contributing. I've missed the hands you post and the discussions they generate. Also, i finnaly picked up Middle Limit Hold'em, and i think its fantastic. As for the hand, i think a river bet would get called no matter what, given the size the pot and your opponent's calling of your 3 bet on the turn. The only problem is figuring out what your opponent holds. I think he's much more likely to have a K or Q high flush than a boat. For him to have a boat (or quads) he would have had to call in middle position with a 56suited or 66. I can't think of any other probable hands that would beat you. And even with these hands, he would have had to call a 3 suited flop with 2nd or middle pair against a large field. I don't think this is likely as he is drawing very slim. If he flopped a set, he played it badly. A more probable scenario is that he only called the flop with a smaller flush, wanting to see if anyone would raise with a probable bigger flush or high flush draw. When no one raised the flop and a blank falls on the turn, he figures his flush is good and can raise the turn, but your 3 bet slows him down as he is scared that you were slowplaying. Also, he may feel he can raise the EP bettor on the turn because if the EP bettor had an Ace high flush he would have slowplayed the flop. So, i think a bet is in order on the river. Mark | ||
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| Re: $20-$40 Hand, mkpoker, 25. Aug 2003 11:26 | ||
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| I'm anxious to see what this guy was holding! As Wren and Mark noted, a lower flush is possible, but we know he doesn't hold the Ad, Jd ,or Td, so what could he have called with pre-flop(from MP, remember)? KQd is the obvious candidate. I doubt he'd play K9d or Q9d from MP. If he's not on KQ, I suppose either 98d, 87d, or 76d are possible. And I agree that if he held either of these hands, he'd probably call a river bet. But...I'd probably put him on AT or a middle pair (anywhere from 55-JJ, but probably not TT). With these hands (particularly JJ), he'd probably stay in to this point, hoping an overpair was good. 55 and TT (less likely) would give him a FH and 66, which would explain his raise on the turn, would give him quads. So....What happened! | ||
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| Re: $20-$40 Hand, Andrew Wells, 25. Aug 2003 16:02 | ||
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| The raise on the turn suggests that you are being played for an AK or big pair with the diamond draw. That is what your slow play on the flop accomplished. By making the raise, he is planning to try and take the pot away from you on the river if a blank hits. Your reraise could then easily be seen as an attempt to take back the initiative. Now what is perhaps a bad card for him falls on the river. He probably doesn't have the Kd or he would most likely bet the river after a semibluff raise on the flop. He might have had a set on the flop and played it poorly. But he most likely has a hand of lesser value that won't call a bet on the river despite the size of the pot. I think he was just making a move on the turn to take the pot away from you and the big blind on the turn or river. Therefore I would check behind him. | ||
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| Re: $20-$40 Hand, noiseboy, 25. Aug 2003 16:44 | ||
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| I had this very situation this weekend, except that I flopped the nut str8 instead of the flush. Anyway, when the running pair came, I went ahead and bet right into him on the river, and he called with trips. If he had a set to start with, he would probably raise the flop if there were draws to beat him. There's always a chance that he has the FH, but given the action, I would put him on trip 6s. | ||
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| Re: $20-$40 Hand, Barry T, 26. Aug 2003 03:02 | ||
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| Hi, Jim: It is very nice to see you here. I like the raise pre-flop. On the flop, I would have raised. There is no chance people are going to say "Oh that Brier raised, he must have the nuts" on the flop. In fact, most likely they will think you have AK with a big diamond and reraise, or at least call and lead into you again when a blank falls. You can slowplay a reraise if it comes. Another reason to raise on the flop is that if a 4th diamond comes, you might get no more action at all. Slowplaying made flushes is always questionable for this reason, On the turn you did fine, of course. Finally, to answer your question, you must bet the river. There are dozens of hands (including smaller flushes) he might have where he did not fill up. Unfortunately, you must also call the check-raise (against most players) but you still should make a profit. Keep playing and keep posting. BarryT | ||
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| Re: $20-$40 Hand, Jim Brier, 26. Aug 2003 19:39 | ||
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| Hi Barry! You and the other guys have nicely resolved a big debate I had with a friend of mine who thought I should have checked the river. I bet, was called, and lost to fives full. I think my bet is especially correct given that my opponent won't check-raise me with a better hand. | ||
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| Re: $20-$40 Hand, mkpoker, 26. Aug 2003 22:01 | ||
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| on 26. Aug 2003 19:39 Jim Brier wrote: > Hi Barry! > > You and the other guys have nicely resolved a big debate I had with a friend of mine who > thought I should have checked the river. I bet, was called, and lost to fives full. I > think my bet is especially correct given that my opponent won't check-raise me with a > better hand. Jim, can you explain what you mean by this? Why do you think your opponent didn't/shouldn't raise you on the river with the full house? Had it been me, I sure would have raised. To me, your reraise on the turn said "I've got the flush?" And when the board paired giving a FH, I would have been very confident that I had you beat. Color me confused... | ||
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| Re: $20-$40 Hand, Jim Brier, 27. Aug 2003 19:26 | ||
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| Of course my opponent should have check-raised me at the river for the very reasons you mention. My point is that if he is going to mistakenly just call my river bet instead of raising, then this strengthens the case for betting since my downside risk is reduced. | ||
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| Results, Jim Brier, 26. Aug 2003 19:41 | ||
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| I bet, got called, and lost to fives full. thanks for the responses. | ||
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