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Server Time: 8/20/2008 5:03:32 AM PACIFIC |
 Play Strategy Question From An Online Newbie, jordanc79, 25. Aug 2003 07:00 | ||
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| Hey guys...I'm really enjoying the discussions taking place on this board. A big shout-out to all involved with UPF and I hope it grows much more in the future. I'm a fairly experienced hold 'em player who's been playing rec games for a while (NYC sucks unless you have the time to travel 2.5 hours to play cards). I'm in the process of getting Neteller set up and starting to dive into poker online as my only outlet for regular play. I'm a research & preparation freak, so I've spent the last few weeks just observing card games over at PokerStars.Com such as the 2-4 & 3-6 ring games as well as the 10+1 muti-table tourneys. I figure these areas would be my stomping grounds with the bankroll I have now. Here is what I've seemed to learn about profitable strategy from my observations: 1. Any ring game from 3-6 down is very loose. Many pre-flop callers, players calling on the river knowing they're beat, people drawing on long shot odds without getting the right price. Typical bad low-limit players, but it seems like 5+ players at a 10-handed table fit this bill. I figure the best strategy is to play almost completely straight forward - bet when strong, check/fold when weak. Raise pre-flop with top-level hands and if the flop isn't favorable, use the "check to the raiser" mentality to get a free card that can help you. Don't spend much time on straight or flush draws unless you know you have the nuts. Rarely ever bluff, unles you're heads-up with another good player. Laydown a high pair on the river against 2 or more opponents if a flush or open-ended straight draw appears. 2. In tourneys, the early stages should be played very tight. Keep yourself in average chip position and run from anything scary on board with more than one opponent. Once most of the dead money loosey-gooseys get eliminated, open your play and try to build a stack. Identify the tighties and try some blind-steals especially in late position. Go for draws with proper pot odds and even bluff on the river with it heads-up if you're against an opponent that can lay a hand down. When you're close to the final table, tighten up again and try to have the big stacks eliminate the small. If you're the big stack, only play really strong hands, especially against the small stacks. Once you're at the final table, open up your play. You're typically against other skilled players, so more advanced strategies will work and your ability to read hands and disguise yourself are much much more effective. The biggest mistakes I seem to see by most players is either - ...Just being a bad low-limit player, too loose & not knowing when they're beat. ...Good players that try disguise ploys and fancy plays without realizing that these low-limit players are rarely adept enough to read you, let alone mis-read you. Would the above be considered a good approach to online play and proper assumptions on character makeup in these limits? Any suggestions would be appreciated. --- JordanC Are those aces in your pocket or are you just happy to see me? | ||
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| Re: Play Strategy Question From An Online Newbie, BigJiim, 25. Aug 2003 07:14 | ||
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| Jordan you hit the nail on the head. Actually most players online or otherwise dont need to be out manouevered or outplayed. Play straight forward poker exactly like you said only I think that you might have undervalued draws slightly because players limp in with and draw with some ridiculous hands. Subsequently you get very good value on almost all of your draws (also as a side note the fact you will find 3-4 players on any table calling with any 2 suited cards the chance to overflush people increases) | ||
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| Re: Play Strategy Question From An Online Newbie, Piers Majestyk, 25. Aug 2003 07:42 | ||
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| While I agree with most of what you said I don't see that many really good games as a norm on pokerstars at the 2-4 3-6 level at least compared with a couple of other sites, namely partypoker. Not to say that some really bad players don't play at stars and make some very good games at times you should really check out some of the other sites just so you have other options should the games here not be as juicy as you atticipate at all times. Good luck. | ||
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| Re: Play Strategy Question From An Online Newbie, jordanc79, 25. Aug 2003 07:51 | ||
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| Play straight forward poker exactly like > you said only I think that you might have undervalued draws slightly because players > limp in with and draw with some ridiculous hands. Subsequently you get very good > value on almost all of your draws (also as a side note the fact you will find 3-4 > players on any table calling with any 2 suited cards the chance to overflush people > increases) Well, I'm talking about situations when your only real chance of winning is with the flush. If you're in the BB with JTs and two small suits come on the flop with 6 players in. I find that in situations like this you're in a losing proposition. You're likely beaten to the flush by bad players holding cards like K6s or A3s. Your two overcards rarely will help as the J top pair will likely lose as well. Fold this hand with many players unless you two-pair on the flop where at least you can beat out all the flush draws. Sometimes I find that players take pot odds way too seriously. Of course, theirs the common mistake of betting with seemingly proper odds not seeing that you're beat even then. That decision is usually made on the turn and not on the flop. Sure, you've got a 1.8-1 shot of making your flush by the river...but realize if there's 4+ opponents, you're shot of winning the hand decreases, especially knowing these players are fully capable of calling a pre-flop raise with K4s even though you wouldn't. I find it more profitable in the long run in these games to save your bet on the flop. An interesting play in contradiction is to bet huge into a scary board with a lot of callers and your flush draw. You're likely going to get very very good odds now. Something like AK10 two-suited will have many people running strong with a set or straights and you can upend them with the flush. Add to the fact that two big cards of the suit are on the board, so your J or 10 top card stands up better. --- JordanC Are those aces in your pocket or are you just happy to see me? | ||
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| Re: Play Strategy Question From An Online Newbie, Piers Majestyk, 25. Aug 2003 08:05 | ||
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| If you are thinking about folding a Jack high 4 flush draw with 6 players in on the flop you are making a serious error. Sure sometime you will get beat by a higher flush but you can't go running scared of that hand being out against you. Most of the time I would not hesitate to lead out into the fray with a bet here or check and then raise if 2 or 3 people had called. Build that pot. Good luck. | ||
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| Re: Play Strategy Question From An Online Newbie, jordanc79, 25. Aug 2003 08:27 | ||
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| on 25. Aug 2003 08:05 Piers Majestyk wrote: > If you are thinking about folding a Jack high 4 flush draw with 6 players in on the > flop you are making a serious error. Sure sometime you will get beat by a higher > flush but you can't go running scared of that hand being out against you. Most of > the time I would not hesitate to lead out into the fray with a bet here or check and > then raise if 2 or 3 people had called. Build that pot. Good luck. I picture this type of situation in my head: JhTh on the BB. Lots of pre-flop callers. Call for the price. 9h5h2d comes on the flop. One bet to you. You call. 4 others limp in. Kc on the turn. One bet to you. You call. 3 others limp in. 4h on the river. One bet to you. You call. 2 players fold and one re-raises. Guy before you calls. You call. Raiser shows K7h. You lose. With so many callers in a loose game holding a flush draw that can be beat with 3+ overs, you're gonna get a ton of supposed "bad beats". You'll be betting up a pot you're drawing dead to. It doesn't matter what the pot odds look like. Now, if you were in late position, you have a bit more leeway. If half fold after the flop hits, then a bet can be warranted. Not knowing if these looseys are on their own flush draw puts you at a disadvantage. I always have found it very important to consider not losing money the same as winning money, so saving two bets with the good chance of drawing dead seems like a good deal to me. Is my strategy here completely wrong or can someone back me up on the logic? --- JordanC | ||
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| Re: Play Strategy Question From An Online Newbie, beigs, 25. Aug 2003 08:57 | ||
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| on 25. Aug 2003 08:27 jordanc79 wrote: > on 25. Aug 2003 08:05 Piers Majestyk wrote: > > If you are thinking about folding a Jack high 4 flush draw with 6 players in on the > > flop you are making a serious error. Sure sometime you will get beat by a higher > > flush but you can't go running scared of that hand being out against you. Most of > > the time I would not hesitate to lead out into the fray with a bet here or check and > > then raise if 2 or 3 people had called. Build that pot. Good luck. > > I picture this type of situation in my head: > > JhTh on the BB. Lots of pre-flop callers. Call for the price. 9h5h2d comes on the flop. > One bet to you. You call. 4 others limp in. Kc on the turn. One bet to you. You call. 3 > others limp in. 4h on the river. One bet to you. You call. 2 players fold and one > re-raises. Guy before you calls. You call. Raiser shows K7h. You lose. > > With so many callers in a loose game holding a flush draw that can be beat with 3+ overs, > you're gonna get a ton of supposed "bad beats". You'll be betting up a pot you're drawing > dead to. It doesn't matter what the pot odds look like. > > Now, if you were in late position, you have a bit more leeway. If half fold after the > flop hits, then a bet can be warranted. Not knowing if these looseys are on their own > flush draw puts you at a disadvantage. > > I always have found it very important to consider not losing money the same as winning > money, so saving two bets with the good chance of drawing dead seems like a good deal to > me. > > Is my strategy here completely wrong or can someone back me up on the logic? > > --- JordanC I've found that on the micro limit tables (1-2 and lower) players will call to the river with one pair, so if you hit your draw you're in really good shape (the exception being a draw to the low end of a straight.) I'm constantly amazed that a 9 or 10 high flush will win huge pots becuase the other players stayed in with bottom pair or second pair. At these lower limits, your flush will be good most of the time (unless there is a 4 flush on the board.) I tend to pump the pot if I hit the flush on the turn. If a fourth flush card shows up on the river then I'll back off. beigs | ||
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| Re: Play Strategy Question From An Online Newbie, Schuster, 25. Aug 2003 09:00 | ||
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| The answer isn't to completely abandon your middle flush draws, just extend your odds a bit when drawing to them. If the pot is offering you 7 or 8 to 1, it's a big leak to not try to finish your flush. You have quite a bit of overlay there! Lee | ||
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| Re: Play Strategy Question From An Online Newbie, Flatout_Mainiac, 25. Aug 2003 11:14 | ||
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| That pretty much sums it up...but I would have to agree with Piers on the JTs. If you only got the flush draw out there after the flop it is worth it as long as the pot is right. The the payoff you'll get when you beat a lower flush, straight, a set and even two pair, far out weighs the couple of dollar loss when you misread the Axs or Kxs. I do agree with you in some respect regarding draw hands as my starting requirements are tighter with a drawing/multiway hand and if there is any signs of danger I'll usually just muck it and wait for a better opportunity. Good luck!!!! | ||
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| Re: Play Strategy Question From An Online Newbie, spk, 25. Aug 2003 12:51 | ||
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| nice post jordan....I may have to remember this if I am seated with you on PokerStars.... St.Patrick - (no from penn :) ) | ||
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| Re: Play Strategy Question From An Online Newbie, jordanc79, 25. Aug 2003 22:12 | ||
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| on 25. Aug 2003 12:51 spk wrote: > nice post jordan....I may have to remember this if I am seated with you on > PokerStars.... > > St.Patrick - (no from penn :) ) Hahahaha. Pat, you seem to be finding me everywhere! As a good player like yourself knows, playing low-limit fish and high-limit sharks makes for completely different strategy. Plus varying you playbook depending on your competition and situation. Remember all the posts you want...I'll still have ya guessing! Hope to see ya at the final table soon at the PS NL tourneys! --- JordanC | ||
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