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Server Time: 9/4/2008 10:10:14 PM PACIFIC |
 I sucked out again!!!, Mark Gregorich, 24. Aug 2003 12:13 | ||
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| After 3 weeks in Michigan, I finally arrived back home in Las Vegas a couple of days ago. I went in to Bellagio Saturday a.m. to play some poker and try to work off the rust that had surely developed in my poker game after a layoff. It usually takes me a session or two to feel like I'm really back in the swing of things after taking some time off. Ordinarily, I will play a slightly smaller game for a short period of time to try to recapture some feel for the game. However, when I arrived, I noticed that there was a seat open in an $80-160 holdem game, in which I recognized only a few players, and they looked bleary-eyed and stuck. So, I sat down. Most of the session was rather uneventful. It was a great game, and I managed to pick up a hand here and there and I was a small winner in the game when this hand came up: The UTG player limped in, which was normal for him, and then a local player (a regular who plays pretty tough) limps behind him. I have KK and raise. A couple guys fold, then a tight player who respects me reraises. The button calls, as does the big blind and the two limpers. I don't like the tight player's reraise, as I don't feel he would make this play here with AK, even suited, in this spot, with me as the original raiser. I also don't think he'd do it with JJ, but probably would with QQ. Therefore, I think its even money that I have the best hand, so I make it 4 bets. Unfortunately, the tight player caps it, which in my mind is the equivalent of turning his cards up. Everyone calls, putting 30.5 small bets in the pot preflop. The flop comes J85, with two hearts. My kings are black. Everyone checks to the capper, who bets. We all call. My call is somewhat reluctant, but its tough to fold when getting 35.5 to 1 odds (with the faintest glimmer of hope that maybe we have the same hand). The turn pairs the 5, which helps me a bit. Now, a king is a totally clean out for me, as the K of hearts is a safe card. Again its checked to the capper, who bets. Everyone calls to me. The pot is giving me a price of about 23:1. However, I know that if I call this bet, I will pay the hand off on the river unless a heart comes and one of the other players bet. So, my price for calling here is reduced significantly. I decide to make the questionable call, against my better judgement. Off comes the king of hearts! While I'm counting the pot, the local to my right bets out. Now, I have a tough decision to make. I'm sure I have the best hand, but how will I make the most money on the river? If I raise, I am likely to be called only by the local. By calling, I might induce overcalls from the AA, plus one of the other players. However, the tight player with AA may lay the hand down even for 1 bet here, feeling certain that the bettor made a flush. I study the rest of the table, and notice that every player looks disgusted. A couple guys are showing their cards to their neighbors and receiving sympathetic nods. It doesn't look to me like I have any shot at more than 1 overcall if I just call. So, I raise. Everyone folds, including the local to my right, who shows me a small flush and mucks his hand. I think he made a mistake here. Sure, he made a good laydown. But why show me? Now, I know that he is capable of laying down a good hand in a huge pot for 1 bet. I filed this info away for future reference. I felt good as I raked in this huge, lucky pot. However, a small part of me felt cheated for only winning 1 bet when I finally made the best hand. Was calling on the river a better play? Its good to be home - Mark | ||
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| Re: I sucked out again!!!, 4 POKER, 24. Aug 2003 13:05 | ||
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| I think there's two ways of looking at it here. One: with the pot being as big as it was, and with everyone being so bleary-eyed and stuck.......you very well could have gotten one of them including the lead off bettor to pay you off.........*especially* from the lead off bettor. Two: Even though you witnessed disgusted looks by these players, there still could have been someone who would pay it off, especially someone who may be unaware as to who you were...... what your requirements would include to raise a lead out bettor with, and so on. And with the flop containing 2 hearts, and then seeing another one come up at the river.....I think you can reasonably put one of these players on a flush, (even a nut flush), where they would also be paying you off. And in my opinion......that local player made a mistake by not paying you off, "especially" when everyone else had folded to him. True, he probably knew he was beat......but with the pot of that size, I still think a payoff for one bet is correct here; it's not like he held nothing on the river. I would think that you would have to figure getting at least one more bet out of him here, so in my opinion, your raise was correct. Seeing the way the hand was played out, would also lead me to believe that this local player who showed such strength during this hand was not attempting a bluff bet now on the river. Like you said, by him showing you what he is capable of laying down under those circumstances is valuable information for the future! It seems to me that this player wanted to impress you here by showing you his powerful laydown on the river. Another mistake IMO. Although I agree when there will be times to just overcall to induce a call or perhaps a raise by somebody else, I am less likely to make that type of play against tired, and "stuck and steaming" type players. Often you will see them pay it off anyway; it may sound unreasonable to an intelligent player like yourself, but you'd be surprised how often a weak/bad player will call 2 bets cold with just top pair or something of that nature. 4P- | ||
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| Re: I sucked out again!!!, FiveV, 24. Aug 2003 13:13 | ||
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| What if the betting was not capped preflop? What if you did not 4 bet pre flop? Maybe they wouldnt put u on KK and the other AA? Probably suspected, but not obvious like a capped bet is. | ||
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| Re: I sucked out again!!!, 4 POKER, 24. Aug 2003 13:29 | ||
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| on 24. Aug 2003 13:13 FiveV wrote: > What if the betting was not capped preflop? What if you did not 4 bet pre flop? > Maybe they wouldnt put u on KK and the other AA? Probably suspected, but not obvious > like a capped bet is. I don't think you should play K-K or any other top-notch holding incorrectly just so you may be able to get paid off when you end up with Kings full. You can't assume that that will be the outcome, so a re-raise is in order pre-flop because all streets of any poker game should be played correctly, and with selective aggresiveness when you do indeed hold a very powerful hand. You also want to be protecting your own hand and not allow the other players to get to the flop for a cheaper price than they should with their own holdings. You have to make them pay pre-flop, and if they beat you, they beat you........but looking at it from hindsight is poor and improper thinking. 4P- | ||
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| Re: I sucked out again!!!, FiveV, 24. Aug 2003 13:39 | ||
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| Sorry I was not saying to do it. Just a what if...In hindsight I like looking to see if there is ANY way I could have made more money with my monstor hand. I think in Mark's case the only way he could have made more money was not 4 bet the flop. | ||
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| Re: I sucked out again!!!, 4 POKER, 24. Aug 2003 14:01 | ||
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| on 24. Aug 2003 13:39 FiveV wrote: > Sorry I was not saying to do it. Just a what if...In hindsight I like looking to see if there > is ANY way I could have made more money with my monstor hand. I think in Mark's case the only > way he could have made more money was not 4 bet the flop. FiveV, He couldn't have made more money if he chose to just call the 3 bets instead of capping it off pre-flop. There were 6 callers who put in an additional $80 *because* Mark capped off the betting, .....that's an additional $480 profit. Although you still can't predict the outcome, and he did indeed play his hand properly pre-flop.........so in "hindsight", he actually made the most by getting all of that (which wound up being dead money)money into the pot before the flop ever came up. But that's not why he played it that way to start off. You can't go by hindsight or to assume that "if" the hand was not capped off, then "maybe" he could have gotten some overcallers. But again.......poker is not played that way, so I still think you need to get rid of that hindsight way of thinking! .........just consider it. 4P- | ||
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| Re: I sucked out again!!!, RTN4, 24. Aug 2003 13:19 | ||
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| You are without a doubt one of the luckiest people I have ever played with. On one occasion I was playing 75 Omaha with you at the Commerce Club, and you must have had ace-deuce suited six or seven times in a row. You scooped or split every pot but one. In that pot you got quartered with a wheel. Not only that people were giving you action that in my opinion was clearly unjustified. Even if they didn't know who you were, they should have been able to figure out after a very short period of time that you were an excellent player. I think you play very well, but I'd rather be lucky than good any ol' day. | ||
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| Re: I sucked out again!!!, Roy Cooke, 24. Aug 2003 13:22 | ||
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| We all have our lucky and unlucky days....That said, I'll put my money on Mark any day...Particually at Omaha Hi-LO! Life is Good :-) Roy Cooke on 24. Aug 2003 13:19 RTN4 wrote: > You are without a doubt one of the luckiest people I have ever played with. On one > occasion I was playing 75 Omaha with you at the Commerce Club, and you must have had > ace-deuce suited six or seven times in a row. You scooped or split every pot but > one. In that pot you got quartered with a wheel. Not only that people were giving > you action that in my opinion was clearly unjustified. Even if they didn't know who > you were, they should have been able to figure out after a very short period of time > that you were an excellent player. > > I think you play very well, but I'd rather be lucky than good any ol' day. | ||
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| Re: I sucked out again!!!, 4 POKER, 24. Aug 2003 13:42 | ||
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| on 24. Aug 2003 13:22 Roy Cooke wrote: > We all have our lucky and unlucky days....That said, I'll put my money on Mark any > day...Particually at Omaha Hi-LO! > > Life is Good :-) > Roy Cooke > Luck is also a matter of who is perceiving it as just that. Keep in mind........."luck" has a way of evening itself out, while being a good poker player does not. I'd put my money on him anyday, indeed! 4P- > on 24. Aug 2003 13:19 RTN4 wrote: > > You are without a doubt one of the luckiest people I have ever played with. On one > > occasion I was playing 75 Omaha with you at the Commerce Club, and you must have had > > ace-deuce suited six or seven times in a row. You scooped or split every pot but > > one. In that pot you got quartered with a wheel. Not only that people were giving > > you action that in my opinion was clearly unjustified. Even if they didn't know who > > you were, they should have been able to figure out after a very short period of time > > that you were an excellent player. > > > > I think you play very well, but I'd rather be lucky than good any ol' day. | ||
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| Re: I sucked out again!!!, grant pittman, 24. Aug 2003 18:20 | ||
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| I knew it wasn't talent!!!! I knew you were lucky!!! Thanx for confirming my suspicions Mark!!! Play it the way you did since you can't play it any better than that. By the way, while you are making mental note of your opponents play take note that you aren't getting paid off enough by these guys!! Time to show a bluff or call someone a name or whatever it takes for these players to start paying you. You are such a nice guy!!! Comin to town thursday Mark. I'm gonna 5 bet you preflop with 2,3 suited and show it to you after you muck kings to me!!! talk soon. GRANT PITTMAN | ||
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| Re: I sucked out again!!!, Frinky, 25. Aug 2003 06:29 | ||
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| With 3 to act after you (If Im reading this correctly) I would simply call. Like you said about the pre-flop capper..you might as well have turned your cards over at that point. I think you might be more likely to get 1 more overcall (of 3) than for the original bettor to call your raise there. | ||
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| Re: I sucked out again!!!, stdioh, 28. Aug 2003 11:28 | ||
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| I think that's a place where you really need to raise. Yes it means that you'll probably only get a call from the bettor (and I'm surprised in a giant pot like this that you didn't), but it is a lot better than having everybody fold to your overcall. You can't expect 2 flushes to be out there, but in a pot with this many players everybody knows that somebody is on a flush draw. When you make top tight your raise there is screaming I have at the very least an excellent flush and AA isn't going to call you for sure unless he's a total nimrod. So you're looking at getting 1 bet by overcalling or probably 2 bets by raising. If you did fluke out and get somebody making a better flush then he'll call your raise anyway or reraise you. | ||
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