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Server Time: 12/1/2008 6:44:14 PM PACIFIC |
 Hold'em hand, Schuster, 22. Aug 2003 16:22 | ||
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| An early player and 2 middle players limp, I raise from the cutoff with As Kc. The big blind and the limpers all call and we take the flop 5 handed. Flop is Ah Jh 6c. The big blind leads out, one early player calls, another folds, and the middle player raises. I flat call, the big blind and early player call. The turn is an offsuit queen. It's checked to the middle player who bets. What do you do? Lee | ||
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| Re: Hold'em hand, mkpoker, 22. Aug 2003 16:44 | ||
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| At the risk of sounding weak-tight, I think you should fold, unless you know the MP player to be a loose bluffer. My guess is that MP already has AJ (maybe AQ) and either way has made aces-up. BB is probably on a flush draw. That means you're down to 5 outs (because the Kh or Th would complete flush). The pot is laying good odds...but not that good. So...what happened? | ||
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| Re: Hold'em hand, Lee Vaughn, 22. Aug 2003 17:03 | ||
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| I think I would have raised the flop. Makes anyone on a flush draw pay one more bet, and you'll have a better idea how you stand vs the middle player based on his response. My guess is he was drawing to the nut flush with K? of hearts? Just a shot in the dark... | ||
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| Re: Hold'em hand, Roy Cooke, 22. Aug 2003 18:49 | ||
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| Hi Shuster First let me say that I disagree with how you played the hand on the flop. By just calling on the flop you let the initial bettor and the caller take a card off for one bet....With a pot of that size, if you are going to play your hand, play it in a manner in which gives you the best chance to win the pot.....Conceptually as the pot gets larger you are less concerned about winning or losing a bet....and more concerned about increasing your chances of winning the pot. If I played the hand in the same manner as you on the flop I would raise a player that I thought I could intimidate for the same conceptual reasons as above.....Then, I might check the river if I thought I may be beat. If I was in danger of getting 3 bet with a superior hand from this opponent, I might just call the turn....Like most close poker decisions, the best decision is a function of your opponent! Roy Cooke on 22. Aug 2003 16:22 Schuster wrote: > An early player and 2 middle players limp, I raise from the cutoff with As Kc. > The big blind and the limpers all call and we take the flop 5 handed. Flop is > Ah Jh 6c. The big blind leads out, one early player calls, another folds, and > the middle player raises. I flat call, the big blind and early player call. > The turn is an offsuit queen. It's checked to the middle player who bets. What > do you do? > > Lee | ||
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| Re: Hold'em hand, 4 POKER, 22. Aug 2003 21:32 | ||
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| Hi Lee, I agree with Roy. I would have chosen to raise the flop as to try and eliminate some of the limpers here. The flop was good for you, but not that good where you would want to receive too many callers here. I think it would be worth it (and more correct) to put in the one extra small bet here because I think you would be giving yourself a much better chance for your own hand to hold up. Once you decide to just smooth call the flop, you are now allowing for other hands to get to the turn more easily, AND you will be allowing (possibly) for the aggresion to take place on the turn by the other players involved where they may not even have you beat but are tryiing to raise someone (perhaps you) off of a better hand than theirs. Showing more aggresion on the flop can possibly eliminate some of their "plays/moves" on the turn now, and you will be allowing yourself to (possibly) get to the river more safely. Once you have too many callers now, and the turn card brings another high card to the straight......you really have no idea now as to how strong your own holding really is. Too many in the pot now IMHO. Raise the flop.......try to eliminate (with what probably is the best hand at the moment anyway)........and being in your position, you might get checked to now on the turn, and whether or not you opt for taking a free card, will depend on *who* is remaining in there with you, (what are their tendencies; ie, aggresive etc.) and how many are left in the hand also. Make them pay to draw out on you if you indeed already have the best hand. 4P- | ||
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| Re: Hold'em hand, Schuster, 23. Aug 2003 00:13 | ||
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| I've reviewed the hand in my mind a lot and I still do not think that 3 betting the flop is the best play. One opponent bet and another raised with the preflop raiser yet to act. That signifies a lot of strength. The board contains a 2 flush and 2 cards in the playing zone. If I do have the best hand right now, I'm probably a small dog to win it with 2 cards to come and this much flop action. If my hand is not best, I am drawing thin to dead, to either 2 pair or runner runner. While it's true that reraising might drive out the early bettor, I will only drive out a hand that is a considerable underdog to mine (ace no kicker, and he might not even fold that!), and it might get 4 bet back to me, further committing myself to the pot if the turn a gutshot card for me. With this board, I think it's too easy for someone to have a set, 2 pair, or the 1 card royal draw. The best situation for me is that one bettor has a good draw and the other has either AT or AQ. If I take a card off, I have a much better feeling if the draw got there. If it's a blank, I can continue with my holding, but if it's a scary card, I can get away from my hand and save a bet. I am interested in what more people have to say about the flop play. I value both of your opinions a lot, and appreciate the feedback! When the turn was a queen, I figured the only hand I could beat that the middle player might have was AT (which I did not think he would raise the flop with, but it's possible), and I was dead to a gutshot that might win half the pot. I folded the hand. The middle player had the KT of hearts, and I didn't catch the early players holding, but he called it down the whole way, so I can only assume he had an ace. Thanks for the replies! Lee | ||
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| Re: Hold'em hand, DJpoker, 24. Aug 2003 13:44 | ||
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| Hey schuster, I absolutely raise with this hand on the flop. With that many players you need to find out who is for real. As stated before, with everyone reading "the books" everyone raises the four flush, but you must make them pay to beat you. Unless someone is sitting on Pocket JJ, you are winning. If they do have the four flush, they have a 35% chance of hitting it. Granted, with that many people, they will have the odds to draw, but you are still the favorite IMO, and must make them pay you. Anyway, good luck out there. DJpoker | ||
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| Re: Hold'em hand, guy lambard, 23. Aug 2003 03:14 | ||
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| on 22. Aug 2003 16:22 Schuster wrote: > An early player and 2 middle players limp, I raise from the cutoff with As Kc. > The big blind and the limpers all call and we take the flop 5 handed. Flop is > Ah Jh 6c. The big blind leads out, one early player calls, another folds, and > the middle player raises. I flat call, the big blind and early player call. > The turn is an offsuit queen. It's checked to the middle player who bets. What > do you do? > > Lee | ||
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