|
||
|
||
|
Server Time: 9/7/2008 7:18:56 PM PACIFIC |
 Turn for the better?, RamDannyboy, 21. Aug 2003 17:18 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| This hand took place online in a loose passive holdem game. Comments on all streets are welcome although I'm particularly interested in the turn decision. I called but I was very tempted to raise. Could a raise be justified? 3 limpers to me on the button as I do with Ac 5c. SB complete and the BB check. 6 to see the flop. Flop: 5s 4c 7d Checked round to me and I bet. Everyone calls. 6 handed. Turn: 2c The blinds check. EP1 bets and MP1 call. MP2 folds to me. I call as do the blinds. 5 handed. What would you do? How many outs did I have? Thanks again for your feedback. | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: Result - Turn for the better?, RamDannyboy, 21. Aug 2003 17:20 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| River: Tc SB bets out. MP1 raises. I 3 bet. SB folds and MP1 calls with a smaller flush. Thank you. | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: Result - Turn for the better?, Eaglesfan1, 21. Aug 2003 17:30 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| If you didn't hit your club on the river you were probably in trouble with this hand. Which would mean you had 8 outs to make the flush and only the river to make it, which aren't very good odds. At the turn you had middle pair, best kicker. But you gotta worry about the top pair on board and gotta think about overcards and the river, Also theres a lot of strait possibilities with that board. I probably would have just called the turn bet knowing if i hit a club I would have the nuts if the board didn't pair, and would hope someone made a strait and bet at me with it. | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: Turn for the better?, Radman, 21. Aug 2003 17:31 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| If they were weak I would have raised for sure. 8 outs to the nutz, Maybe a straight I guess, but I'd call the 2 5's and 3 Aces pretty good outs as well, seven of clubs is a scary out, at best. | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: Turn for the better?, Radman, 21. Aug 2003 17:37 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| Well nice result regardless, and calling might have won you a couple extra bets in this case also. I still would have raised (: | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: Turn for the better?, Schuster, 21. Aug 2003 17:41 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| Was the turn bettor a wretched player? Because I can't think of any hand aside from pocket 2's that could have been helped by the 2. If he had the straight, the 2 wouldn't have made it any sweeter. Obviously, you have the outs to the flush. Trips and aces up I would consider slightly tainted since that turn bettor could have flopped a set and decided to play it poorly. I would raise here to drive out people holding a 6 and drawing, and check it down at the showdown if I didn't improve. Without any information on the bettor, I'd say you might very well have the best hand right now. Lee | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: Turn for the better?, Barry T, 22. Aug 2003 16:03 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| Hi. I know you did not ask about this, but I am not a big fan of your bet on the flop. Do you think everyone will fold? Do you think you will win this hand unless you improve? In my lecture about common costly hold'em errors, this is the sort of hand I use as an example of when not to bet on the button. You need help, and checking is a great way to see if you get it. I see that you did get some, but that does not make the flop bet correct. BarryT | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Barry T, Radman, 22. Aug 2003 17:58 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| Would you ever run a semi-bluff in this spot in a tougher, higher limit game? Or is 5 players just too many to try it on in any game? | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: Turn for the better?, Schuster, 23. Aug 2003 00:23 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| > Do you think everyone will fold? I doubt it, but some people will likely fold. > Do you think you will win this hand unless you improve? Maybe. But there is a decent chance he has the best hand right now. If he checks and an offsuit king falls, it might pair someone who would have folded to a flop bet. With the pot at 6 bets, shouldn't he risk one to fold out a few hands that might draw out on him? The callers will likely either hold the straight draw or overcards. If one of those overcards are aces, you want them putting money in the pot, and if the straight draw connects, it will be easy to get away from your hand. I thought a bet was the way to go in this situation. I guess I'm missing something, would you be able to elaborate any more Barry? Lee | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: Turn for the better?, Barry T, 23. Aug 2003 01:32 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| Hi. I would check. You might get a hand to fold that might beat you, yes, but that does not matter much if some other hand will beat you anyway. If you are really betting because you are hoping to fold enough players to make a pair of fives win at the showdown, fine. I prefer to put my money in when I have a better chance. Note that if I do improve (say an ace comes), I will be in a great position to raise the player who leads. I really believe that everyone sees lots of articles telling them how to get busy and make brilliant bets, and nobody much talks about just checking. The button bets WAY too much when checked to, and this is such a case. BTW, how will you feel if you are check-raised? And no, a semi-bluff (reread TOP) assumes that you MIGHT win now. This is impossible here, IMO. BarryT | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: Turn for the better?, Schuster, 23. Aug 2003 09:07 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| I can see your point. If the opponents were the type who never check raised without a really strong hand, would you make the bet? If they were players who would fold their overcards due to the coordinated board, would you make the bet? If the board were more like 2-5-9 rainbow, would the bet then be warranted? Would your opinion change the number of players were the same, everyone checked to you, and the board was something like 2-3-8 rainbow and you held pocket 7's? With only 2 outs rather than 5, and no backdoor flush draw, is the small chance of improvement combined with the chance that your hand may be good now worth a bet? I really respect your opinion Barry, thanks for the extra effort on this thread. Lee | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: Turn for the better?, Barry T, 24. Aug 2003 08:41 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| Hi. Sorry. Thanks for the nice words but i cannot do justice to your question without writing an article (or maybe a series). I am in Europe presently (London today) and it costs a lot to internet. So much depends on the exact flop, the exact number of opponents, their strengths and weaknesses, the tendencies of the blinds, and many more things. I hate to use the "it depends" cop-out, but there is too much to give you a short answer. I stand by my main point that the button bets way too often in many situations, and the one oringinally posted is one of them. BarryT | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: Turn for the better? I dont get it, RamDannyboy, 24. Aug 2003 13:46 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| Hi Barry. Thanks for your feedback on this hand. You certainly got me thinking. But I'm missing something. Given the possibility that the hand might actually be ahead, I find it hard to see how betting on the flop could be a mistake. Any hand you can get to fold significantly improves your chances. Also allowing overcards or drawing hands to take a free shot at you is surely a disaster. You could have been checked-raised, but at least you have some idea where you stand on the cheap streets. In that event you still have outs. Checking here seems to me the wrong option. Thanks you. | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: Turn for the better? I dont get it, Mark, 24. Aug 2003 15:53 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| Hi, I know i'm not Barry, but i do agree with him. What does your flop bet acomplish? Making one or two players fold does not "significantly" improve your chances of winning (as you stated). It does improve your chances, but only by 5 to 10%. I realize that you're trying to get overcards to fold (as the turn and river will most likely contain overcards), but you don't have much of a chance to get 5 players to fold to a button's bet on a ragged flop. Most overcards will call you, along with any draws. (Your also creating good pot odds for someone to call a bet on the turn if you do actually catch something) It seems to me that your hand is still a drawing hand on the flop (because even if it is best, it will not stay that way for long). You intended your bet to be a semi-bluff, but for that you need to have a good chance to take down the pot on the flop. Since your odds of winning on the flop were very poor, your bet was actually a bluff. You probably know that bluffing into 5 opponents is not usually a good play. In the long run, it would probably be much more profitable to check the flop (no matter what the opposition plays like), and check/fold the turn unless you catch a good card. That way you can get away from your hand at minimal cost if your hand turns sour on the turn. However, if you were only against one or two opponents, then the flop bet semi-bluff would be a good play, as you would have a good chance of winning the pot right away, or on the turn. Mark | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: Turn for the better? I dont get it, shorn, 29. Aug 2003 07:49 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| Not only is the hand a drawing hand on the flop, but you are not drawing to the nut hand (yet). Only when you have a nut draw would I think a flop bet was correct here. You have five clean outs at this point (2 5's and 3 aces) which is a 8-1 shot. Since there aren't 8 passive callers in the pot, you can't get the odds you need to bet for value. Therefore, the check is the best play. Incidentally, I would have definitely raised the turn with the nut flush draw as now I have 13 outs to win and I can represent a bigg hand (set) that may cause everyone else to fold. This is a great example of a good time to semi-bluff raise. | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: Turn for the better? I dont get it, Barry T, 25. Aug 2003 01:33 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| Hi. One of the most wondeful things about poker is there is plenty of room for differences of opinion. BarryT | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| POKER FORUM HOME | POKER FORUM | LINK TO US | ARCHIVE | ONLINE POKER | Copyright 2002, United Poker Forum |
|
Getting Started |
UPF Tournaments |
Poker News, Views, Rules |
Poker Strategy & Psychology |
Money and Bankroll Poker Bonuses & Promotions | World Series of Poker (WSOP) | Play Online Poker | Poker Odds & Statistics | Tournament Poker | Poker Books, Videos & Learning Tools Looking for a Poker Game | Poker Bad Beats | Not Quite Poker | Quizzes and Polls | Forum Suggestions & Bugs |
|
|
|
|
Interesting Links: Online Poker | Free Poker Games | United Poker Network |
|