|
||
|
||
|
Server Time: 12/1/2008 11:14:24 PM PACIFIC |
 I suck at tournaments - what book?, johnny, 21. Aug 2003 11:42 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| I've started playing low buy-in tournaments after having been consistently successfull at low limit ring games, and have discovered I suck at tournament play. I just busted out of a tourney when my two pair turned into two pair with a weak kicker when the board paired on the river. I put the cards into poker stove and it said I was a 81% favorite when I put all my chips in the pot. It seems like this ALWAYS happens to me. I get my chips in there when I've got the best hand, but get drawn out on. I think my weakness is not knowing how I should let my stack size influence my decisions. What book should I get? Sklanksy's? Thanks, Johnny. | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: I suck at tournaments - what book?, Lee Vaughn, 21. Aug 2003 18:53 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| Sklansky's is best in my opinion...Good luck. Lee | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: I suck at tournaments - what book?, Roy Cooke, 22. Aug 2003 07:53 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| I would recomend Sklansky's book! Roy Cooke on 21. Aug 2003 11:42 johnny wrote: > I've started playing low buy-in tournaments after having been consistently > successfull at low limit ring games, and have discovered I suck at tournament > play. I just busted out of a tourney when my two pair turned into two pair with > a weak kicker when the board paired on the river. I put the cards into poker > stove and it said I was a 81% favorite when I put all my chips in the pot. It > seems like this ALWAYS happens to me. I get my chips in there when I've got the > best hand, but get drawn out on. > > I think my weakness is not knowing how I should let my stack size influence my > decisions. What book should I get? Sklanksy's? > > Thanks, > Johnny. | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Roy, Pls. Comment on this Tourney Post, mkpoker, 22. Aug 2003 08:18 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| on 22. Aug 2003 07:53 Roy Cooke wrote: > I would recomend Sklansky's book! > > Roy Cooke > Johnny didn't say if he was talking about online or B&M tourneys, and I think there's a big difference between the two. Following is a long post I made last week in response to a similar question about books for multi-table online tourneys. Roy advised buying Sklansky, and I questioned whether Sklansky's advice (and to a greater extent TJ Cloutier's) apply to low buy-in multi-table online tournaments. I'm curious to see what other UPFers think. ----------------- (post from last week) For the first time, I'm not sure I agree with Roy. I'd posit that TJ Cloutier's NL Tourney classic--and to a lesser extent, Sklansky's book--don't apply especially well to fast-paced on-line tournaments. I'd welcome other's opinions...But here are my quick thoughts on how on-line tourneys differ from B&M tourneys, and why the expert advice might be wrong--especially in the early stages. 1. Tables collapse more quickly. At multi-table online tourneys, players drop like flies in the earlygoing. And as a result, new players are added to your table constantly. Also, it's quite possible you'll be pulled away from your table before you have a decent sense of the people you're playing with. Hence, many of the variables described in the "classic" books--which depend upon table texture and reads on players--are more difficult to apply. 2. Bluffs don't work as well on-line, especially early and especially in low dollar tourneys. In a nutshell, Sklansky's thesis is to go after small pots aggressively and back off when someone shows real interest. But as we've all discussed ad nauseam, on-line players have much lower calling (and raising) standards. Slanksy advocates a lot of blind stealing and raising with moderate hands. I think that's trouble online. Too much risk of being called and drawn-out. In my view, better to make a stand with a pretty good hand and try to collect some chips. 3. The pace is quicker. Both TJ and Sklansky advise patience, patience, patience. Obviously, that's important on and off-line. But if you're as patient as they advocate, I think you'll wind up with such a short stack after a few hours that you'll be forced to change your strategy. **Opponents in on-line tourneys are more likely to make mistakes early. You can't be so patient that you let them get away with it.** 4. Emotionally, players have less investment in an online tourney. If you go through all the trouble of driving to your local casino (or making a special trip to Vegas), you don't want to go home early! So you play tight--especially early. Online, tourneys aren't as big a deal (except the big ones, of course). If you get busted out, you watch some TV or join the tourney starting 10 minutes from now. So you play loose. And you're a lot less likely to let some jerk steal your blinds! So how do you adapt? Because of all these factors, I think there's a higher luck factor in on-line than B&M tourneys. You've just gotta live with that, make a few stands earlier and hope for the best. For example, I'd call an all-in bet early with KK (a move the pros hate) because I'm guessing my opponents could have AK, QQ, JJ or worse. It's not likely someone would push all-in pre-flop with JJ at the WSOP, but I see it all the time on-line. Also, I wouldn't go after small pots aggressively with moderate hands, as Sklansky advocates. Online, I think you're likely to be called or raised often enough that this becomes a -EV play. So, in response to JD's original question, I would buy Sklansky's book, but I'd keep these differences in mind. In my view, a "great" book for online tourneys has been written yet. Hey Roy, Maybe you should write it! --matt | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: Roy, Pls. Comment on this Tourney Post, Roy Cooke, 22. Aug 2003 08:50 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| My response is underneath the questions! Roy Cooke on 22. Aug 2003 08:18 mkpoker wrote: > on 22. Aug 2003 07:53 Roy Cooke wrote: > > I would recommend Sklansky's book! > > > > Roy Cooke > > > Johnny didn't say if he was talking about online or B&M tourneys, and I think there's a > big difference between the two. Following is a long post I made last week in response to > a similar question about books for multi-table online tourneys. Roy advised buying > Sklansky, and I questioned whether Sklansky's advice (and to a greater extent TJ > Cloutier's) apply to low buy-in multi-table online tournaments. > > I'm curious to see what other UPFers think. > > ----------------- > > (post from last week) > > For the first time, I'm not sure I agree with Roy. I'd posit that TJ Cloutier's NL > Tourney classic--and to a lesser extent, Sklansky's book--don't apply especially well to > fast-paced on-line tournaments. I'd welcome other's opinions...But here are my quick > thoughts on how on-line tourneys differ from B&M tourneys, and why the expert advice might > be wrong--especially in the early stages. > > 1. Tables collapse more quickly. > At multi-table online tourneys, players drop like flies in the earlygoing. And as a > result, new players are added to your table constantly. Also, it's quite possible you'll > be pulled away from your table before you have a decent sense of the people you're playing > with. Hence, many of the variables described in the "classic" books--which depend upon > table texture and reads on players--are more difficult to apply. Roy Says: I agree, but that does not mean that the concept does not have merit....Obviously the better you know your players the better your decisions will be against them! > > 2. Bluffs don't work as well on-line, especially early and especially in low dollar > tourneys. > In a nutshell, Sklansky's thesis is to go after small pots aggressively and back off when > someone shows real interest. But as we've all discussed ad nauseam, on-line players have > much lower calling (and raising) standards. Sklansky advocates a lot of blind stealing and > raising with moderate hands. I think that's trouble online. Too much risk of being called > and drawn-out. In my view, better to make a stand with a pretty good hand and try to > collect some chips. Roy Says: I agree with this also....It is much harder early and that is generally true in live tourneys also....That said, as the tourney progresses this concept has considerable merit! > > 3. The pace is quicker. > Both TJ and Sklansky advise patience, patience, patience. Obviously, that's important on > and off-line. But if you're as patient as they advocate, I think you'll wind up with such > a short stack after a few hours that you'll be forced to change your strategy. **Opponents > in on-line tourneys are more likely to make mistakes early. You can't be so patient that > you let them get away with it.** Roy Says: Early on players are going to call you more often...When you move considerable chips forward you need to win the pot.....Survival is key! So you should not go splashing with garbage early trying to get lucky. The gain in chips will have little value later in the tourney and if you lose you put yourself in tough straights early. Patience is still a key, but I agree you cannot just sit and wait for aces as you may never get them! > > 4. Emotionally, players have less investment in an online tourney. > If you go through all the trouble of driving to your local casino (or making a special > trip to Vegas), you don't want to go home early! So you play tight--especially early. > Online, tourneys aren't as big a deal (except the big ones, of course). If you get busted > out, you watch some TV or join the tourney starting 10 minutes from now. So you play > loose. And you're a lot less likely to let some jerk steal your blinds! Roy Says: I agree! > > So how do you adapt? Roy Says: You make fewer blind steals with marginal hands! > > Because of all these factors, I think there's a higher luck factor in on-line than B&M > tourneys. You've just gotta live with that, make a few stands earlier and hope for the > best. For example, I'd call an all-in bet early with KK (a move the pros hate) because I'm > guessing my opponents could have AK, QQ, JJ or worse. It's not likely someone would push > all-in pre-flop with JJ at the WSOP, but I see it all the time on-line. Roy Says: I agree...That is a proper adjustment to the situation that is current! > > Also, I wouldn't go after small pots aggressively with moderate hands, as Sklansky > advocates. Online, I think you're likely to be called or raised often enough that this > becomes a -EV play. Roy Says: I think that depends upon the texture of your table....But I agree that the texture of opponent online is MUCH less experienced! > > So, in response to JD's original question, I would buy Sklansky's book, but I'd keep > these differences in mind. In my view, a "great" book for online tourneys has been written > yet. Roy Says: I agree.....That said, I think David writes quality material. > > Hey Roy, > Maybe you should write it! > > --matt | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: Roy, Pls. Comment on this Tourney Post, noiseboy, 22. Aug 2003 09:15 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| mkpoker, Just wanted to say that your post about the differences in playing conditions in a low buy-in low limit tourney are right on. Sklansky's gap concept is extremely valuable when the competition is playing like they are "supposed" to play; however, in the online tourneys, many people are if anything playing the reverse strategy (assuming they are even thinking about it) of playing early and taking a lot of gambles to build a stack or bust out. This isn't as bad a strategy as one might think, because with the blinds going up faster a tight strategy just isn't going to cut it unless the deck hits you pretty good. You'll go like Broomcorn's uncle. Anyway, with these differences in mind, some of what Sklansky and Cloutier say needs to be modified a bit. You need to quickly get a handle on who has low raising standards so that you can make proper all-in decisions like the one you mentioned about calling with KK's. Against certain players, you might be willing to go as low as QQ's or JJ's. The other day I had this Joker go all-in on me with ATo!!! I had more than him and had observed his previous crazy plays, so I reraised with the KK's to hopefully shut everyone else out (which it did). The play and the read was correct, but alas, he flopped the A. Anyway, your post makes a great point that most of the tournament books kinda assume that your competition are pretty good players, but as we all know, bad players sometimes conspire against you even though they are not aware of it. For instance, you go all-in after a raise and a reraise with your AA's to shut out most of the field, but to your dismay end up with five callers. You still will win more than your fair share, but there is also a much greater chance you will bust out. Anyway, crazy play is par for the course, and you MUST adjust to it. | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| POKER FORUM HOME | POKER FORUM | LINK TO US | ARCHIVE | ONLINE POKER | Copyright 2002, United Poker Forum |
|
Getting Started |
UPF Tournaments |
Poker News, Views, Rules |
Poker Strategy & Psychology |
Money and Bankroll Poker Bonuses & Promotions | World Series of Poker (WSOP) | Play Online Poker | Poker Odds & Statistics | Tournament Poker | Poker Books, Videos & Learning Tools Looking for a Poker Game | Poker Bad Beats | Not Quite Poker | Quizzes and Polls | Forum Suggestions & Bugs |
|
|
|
|
Interesting Links: Online Poker | Free Poker Games | United Poker Network |
|