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Server Time: 12/1/2008 10:35:40 PM PACIFIC |
 WHAT WOULD YOU HAVE DONE?, Giocatore, 20. Aug 2003 23:08 | ||
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| Before illustrating the hand which is the focal point of this post, I would like to remind anyone who cares to offer an opinion that the primary objective of online poker for me is to supplement my income. In other words, I make it my goal to win anywhere from $500-$1000 per week, which I consider reasonable, and for the most part, I have enjoyed considerable success the past couple of years. Now to the hand. I sat down at a 15/30 HE table on Party Poker and waited for the big blind to arrive. Much to my approval, I was dealt A-K suited, yet by the time the action came to me, it would cost an additional 2 bets to see the flop. Considering that there had already been 4 callers, including the small blind, it was pretty much a no brainer. So we took the flop 5-handed for 3 bets each and I ended up flopping a nut flush draw and then proceeded to make my flush on the turn. Since the board did not pair, I ultimately took down a nice pot and netted nearly $500 on that hand alone due to two opponents paying me off and overplaying their hands, which I later found to be A-A and two pair as per the hand history. Since I was a bit tired and quite satisified that I had achieved almost half of my weekly goal in one single hand, I posted the small blind with the intention of leaving the table when the big blind came back to me. This time I looked down to see 2-2, and once again it would cost me 2 additional bets plus the $5 difference to see the flop. With only 3 players in so far and the big blind yet to act, I decided to muck considering that I was not a big favorite. Ultimately the big blind called. To my utter despair, the flop came 2-2-A with a flush draw, and in the end, aces full beat someone's river flush. In other words, if I had been in this hand, I would undoubtedly had made another killing, yet desiring to play conservative and book my nearly $500 win, I decided to muck my deuces. My question is this. If you were me, would you have called with deuces for an additional 2 big bets with the intention of folding if you did not flop a set or better? Take into the consideration the fact that I had just scooped up a huge pot the hand before. Or would you have mucked as I did with the intention of waiting for something better? While I'm satisfied with my less-than-10 minute $500 win, I'm the type of person who is going to have this particular hand at the back of my mind for a while. I look forward to any opinions on this subject, hopefully from those who strongly rely on poker as a source of income, and please do not forget my particular situation where I was happy to have achieved half of my weekly goal in one hand, for it heavily factors into my decision to muck the deuces. Grazie a tutti. - Giocatore | ||
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| Re: WHAT WOULD YOU HAVE DONE?, 4 POKER, 20. Aug 2003 23:51 | ||
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| Hey Gio, First........."nice quick win".......that's great. (but it really doesn't matter when you're talking about long term results). Second.......whether or not you just dragged in a nice hefty pot, (IMO), as long as you're sitting in the game, you still want to be playing your hands accordingly to what the strength of the hand really is; meaning, you should have folded the 2-2 for two bets cold (which you did) because the hand doesn't warrant a call....it's a dog hand to begin with and will not be a true moneymaker for you if you chose to play it under those circumstances. But that is the reason why I would fold the hand; not because I already had a nice win under my belt, know what I mean? If you were losing in the game, the hand should also be mucked and should not be played just to try and get lucky with the thinking of, "well maybe this hand can get me out of the hole". Your already existing win has no bearing on your next hand that's dealt to you. If the hand has usually no where to go, than it should be mucked, plain and simple. I know to see a flop of A-2-2 must of really got you second guessing your fold here.....but IMO, your fold was correct regardless. Now....if you were dealt a much stronger hand and mucked it because you were sitting on a $500 win and were happy with that; then that would definitely be a mistake for the simple reason that you could have potentially added to your win. (but that as well is all long term). Making the best decisions *all the time* whether currently winning in the game or not will separate the winners from the losers and the "break-out eveners". Poker is a game of long term results, and I know that you are aware of that.....BUT, as long as you're still sitting in the game and are playing really good/solid poker.......you just want to play your usual good, smart poker thinking type game and let the chips fall where they may. You will not always win at poker, and you can not put those expectations on yourself either.........but the more experienced you become, and the more skills and edges you have, combined with discipline, and "applying" all those things with good table selection......will be a huge factor on how much money you can expect to earn on average, and will be a determining factor when talking about long term results. It's not easy, but that is the only way to beat the game consistently. Losses will happen of course........but when you are capable of maximizing on your winning hands and minimizing your losses, you'll show better results for the long haul. It sounds repetative I know, but short term results mean nothing. You can easily win $1000 one week and lose $3000 the next......so please don't put that kind of pressure (or unrealistic goals) on yourself. Expect to have losses, but if you play solid poker, the money that you DO earn (L.T.R.) will outweigh it; and how much you can expect to earn will depend on how skillful, etc. etc. you actually are. Yes, you could have added to your win for that one particular session if you played the 2-2 for two more bets, but in the long run that call will extract from your average BB per hour. (that's MO). Buona fortuna! 4P- P.s. (Are you going to be in AC anytime soon? I'll be heading back there in about a week or two). We can check to see if The Borgata changed their marble block!.......LOL:)! ......."Thanks" Gio. | ||
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| Re: WHAT WOULD YOU HAVE DONE?, Schuster, 21. Aug 2003 04:58 | ||
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| I was going to post, but 4 poker already did a nice job of saying what I was going to say. You're even at the beginning of every hand, whether you are losing or winning a lot for the session. Nice post Dave. Lee | ||
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| Re: WHAT WOULD YOU HAVE DONE?, Jav, 21. Aug 2003 10:13 | ||
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| Agreed. I have nothing else to add to that, nice post 4Poker. | ||
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| Re: WHAT WOULD YOU HAVE DONE?, grant pittman, 20. Aug 2003 23:56 | ||
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| Giocatore you bring up some good issues for discussion with this post. With 3 callers in front and you being unsure about the large blinds intention in this hand the situation is marginal for a call. You are in poor position to make a great deal of money with the hand since the preflop 3 bettor is on your immediate right. I think it is close and my decision would have been to call had I been reasonably sure the big blind was calling also. Now all this talk about reaching a weekly win goal and so on is a little foolish since your take is that you will win $500 to $1000 a week no matter what. GOOD LUCK!!!!!! And it doesn't matter how well you play either .There will be some weeks where you just won't be able to win. NOT EVEN $1!!!!!!!!!! Poker has a huge luck factor that is relevant in the short term. It is the reason you see people happy and sad at the table. Everyone WANTS to win and even for those who WILL win there is no guarantee that it will happen today or this week for that matter. Believe in this reality and don't tie yourself down to a must win schedule or you will be dealing with plenty more frustration and disappointment than you can handle. If you plan on playing this game to make a living, these are two emotions worth making an effort to control in your poker game and for that matter your life. Good luck!!!! GRANT PITTMAN | ||
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| Re: WHAT WOULD YOU HAVE DONE?, 4 POKER, 21. Aug 2003 00:33 | ||
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| Grant, I'm going to disagree with you a bit here. I don't think calling 2 bets cold with 2-2 is a marginal call. I think it borderlines on being a bad call. If that hand was played out for 2 bets cold under the same circumstances when referring to your long term results, I think it would be a moneyloser. (That's just MO). | ||
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| Re: WHAT WOULD YOU HAVE DONE?, grant pittman, 21. Aug 2003 08:59 | ||
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| For all of you that believe that a preflop call here with 2,2 is bad poker I am taking this stand. It's marginal poker and that isn't CLOSE to being bad poker by any means. I think the call is marginal for the reasons mentioned by Roy....specifically I want the big blinds money in the pot PREFERABLY with no other raising preflop. This may be ,on average, just too much to ask for both of these situations to play out preflop. The worst scenario would play out when the big blind mucks and a limper caps off the betting. YUK!!!! I'm not saying YUK cause I think I am beat preflop. I'm pretty sure that I am beat but WHO CARES??????? We need to look at the size of the pot and the chance it will get bigger and we know we need to flop a set or some type of straight draw to proceed after the flop. It is a very easy hand to play actually after the flop. Be careful getting caught up with the texture and strength of your hand . It is easy to say "Did you see what that guy did??? He called three bets cold with pocket 2's and chased down aces and kings " etc etc blah blah blah. Do the math.....look at all the factors that will factor into the play of the hand .....this will expand your game. Read the books and study them but don't confine yourself to them. They don't have all the answers!!!! Good luck. GRANT PITTMAN | ||
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| Preflop raises and position., Flatout_Mainiac, 21. Aug 2003 05:16 | ||
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| Sorry to get off subject here, Giocatore. But I have a follow up question for Grant and I would be doing a dis-service to give you advice. Though for my 2 cents I would have mucked without second thought and figured the flop was the poker gods revenge for hitting the monster on the hand before. Grant, Can you expand a little on this comment and how raises and and re-raises for certain positions in relation to you and in relation to the button affects one decision on the preflop. "You are in poor position to make a great deal of money with the hand since the preflop 3 bettor is on your immediate right." Thanks | ||
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| Preflop raises & position (attn: GP), tpir90036, 21. Aug 2003 07:54 | ||
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| i am not mr. pittman :( but i will try to answer the question to the best of my knowledge and hopefully one of the pros can tell me if i am on the right track. the basic idea is that having the raiser on your immediate right is the worst possible scenario and might change some close calls into easier folds. there are several reasons for this: 1) you have no guarantee how the rest of the field will act when one (or two) raises get back around to them pre-flop. this isn't the major reason but *could* effect the number of players that see the flop if it ends up being two more bets to them. 2) more importantly, on the rest of the betting rounds you will be in *bad position relative to the raiser*. ideally you would want the pre-flop raiser to you left so that you are acting last with respect to him and he has to bet through the field to you. acting last is clearly a good thing as you can see how everyone else reacted to his actions. also, with the raiser on your immediate right if someone in early position check-raises you will get caught in it as well. hope this is the right answer (i think it is) and that it helps.... good luck! | ||
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| Re: WHAT WOULD YOU HAVE DONE?, Risky Business, 21. Aug 2003 07:14 | ||
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| A bit condensed, but here't goes... If you are supplementing your income, and you've done well in the past, how can you explain throwing away 2-2 in any hand? The answer is because you know it's a dog in that situation. My point is that you are relying on this over the long term, so you have to remove yourself from this particular game and ask yourself if you'd play 2-2 for 2 extra bets, plus $5 if you had not won the previous hand. The answer is NO. Sleep well. Ciao. | ||
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| Re: WHAT WOULD YOU HAVE DONE?, Roy Cooke, 21. Aug 2003 07:24 | ||
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| Hi Giocatore At the point of decision you are likely getting 150-35 on the call...In your favor the big blind might call....going against you it may get capped....You are getting 4-1 +/- depending on some unknowns.....That is a close call. My decision would be based on: 1). What is the chances of higher wired pairs being out? Are the players in the pot of the texture with a high propensity to be on pairs. 2). How do my opponents play? Am I likely to win a big one or get in dead bets from my opponents if I flop a set? I am around 7-1/2-1 to flop a set.....If I feel I can average that or more when I WIN (Not just flop a set) I am playing an overlay. From what I have seen of the games on Party...I would probably be calling! Life is Good :-) Roy Cooke on 20. Aug 2003 23:08 Giocatore wrote: > Before illustrating the hand which is the focal point of this post, I would like > to remind anyone who cares to offer an opinion that the primary objective of > online poker for me is to supplement my income. In other words, I make it my > goal to win anywhere from $500-$1000 per week, which I consider reasonable, and > for the most part, I have enjoyed considerable success the past couple of years. > > > Now to the hand. I sat down at a 15/30 HE table on Party Poker and waited for > the big blind to arrive. Much to my approval, I was dealt A-K suited, yet by > the time the action came to me, it would cost an additional 2 bets to see the > flop. Considering that there had already been 4 callers, including the small > blind, it was pretty much a no brainer. So we took the flop 5-handed for 3 bets > each and I ended up flopping a nut flush draw and then proceeded to make my > flush on the turn. Since the board did not pair, I ultimately took down a nice > pot and netted nearly $500 on that hand alone due to two opponents paying me off > and overplaying their hands, which I later found to be A-A and two pair as per > the hand history. Since I was a bit tired and quite satisified that I had > achieved almost half of my weekly goal in one single hand, I posted the small > blind with the intention of leaving the table when the big blind came back to > me. This time I looked down to see 2-2, and once again it would cost me 2 > additional bets plus the $5 difference to see the flop. With only 3 players in > so far and the big blind yet to act, I decided to muck considering that I was > not a big favorite. Ultimately the big blind called. To my utter despair, the > flop came 2-2-A with a flush draw, and in the end, aces full beat someone's > river flush. In other words, if I had been in this hand, I would undoubtedly > had made another killing, yet desiring to play conservative and book my nearly > $500 win, I decided to muck my deuces. > > My question is this. If you were me, would you have called with deuces for an > additional 2 big bets with the intention of folding if you did not flop a set or > better? Take into the consideration the fact that I had just scooped up a huge > pot the hand before. Or would you have mucked as I did with the intention of > waiting for something better? While I'm satisfied with my less-than-10 minute > $500 win, I'm the type of person who is going to have this particular hand at > the back of my mind for a while. I look forward to any opinions on this > subject, hopefully from those who strongly rely on poker as a source of income, > and please do not forget my particular situation where I was happy to have > achieved half of my weekly goal in one hand, for it heavily factors into my > decision to muck the deuces. Grazie a tutti. > > - Giocatore > | ||
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| Re: WHAT WOULD YOU HAVE DONE?, Barry T, 21. Aug 2003 08:56 | ||
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| Hi. As usual, Roy calls when I would fold. That loose Roy guy! I do not like the current pot odds, the position, the exposure to further raising, the fact that raises on the flop could eliminate mostof the field,and the fact that I could easily flop second best set. (Would you be posting this question if the flop came A92?) At best it is a really marginal call, and I pass marginal calls in the worst possible position. BarryT | ||
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| Re: WHAT WOULD YOU HAVE DONE?, shorn, 29. Aug 2003 07:37 | ||
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| I am with Barry on this one. Yes, you are getting 4-1 or so on your call. But, with all the pre-flop raising going on, it is unlikely that your post-flop profit will be enough to warrant a very loose call as it is likely to get down to heads up the rest of the way where you are only getting 1 to 1 on your money. I fold without thinking here. | ||
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| Re: WHAT WOULD YOU HAVE DONE?, WilliamS, 21. Aug 2003 07:49 | ||
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| Gio, I have a question about leaving the game so quickly. I'm only using this instance as an example to illustrate my point. -When you hit a BIG pot should you leave with your winnings immediately? For example you made about 16 BB in that one hand. We know that you can only expect to make 1-2 BB/HR. Therefore, it stands to reason you're going to back up? -I take the other side. In order to average the 1-2 BB/H I feel we need to have a few BIG session wins to average out those days where things don't go as planned. So, I feel if a person is good enough and adequately bankrolled to beat a particular game he should stay there for as long as things are in his favor. To my point, I have found severaly games in the last few weeks with a couple HORRIBLE players who were tilting badly; if I had left after one or two big pots I would have left a lot of profit on the table. -A trap I've fell into in the past (hopefully not in the future) is jumping up to a bigger game looking to hit one big pot and get out. More often than not this is a disaster. I really think it is imperative that we play in games where we are adequately bankrolled and plan on playing in a game for multiple rounds. If we are playing in a game where we have the advantage; that advantage should get slightly better each round around the table. If we are playing in games where we are underdogs then the odds should be getting a little longer each round of the cards. thats my take Will | ||
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| Re: WHAT WOULD YOU HAVE DONE?, Giocatore, 21. Aug 2003 09:42 | ||
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| First, thanks to everyone who responded with their thoughts and opinions on this particular hand. If I may, I would like to add a few things that were factored into my thought process before mucking the deuces which I neglected to address in my original post. Also, I will try to answer a few of the questions posed to me in some of the responses. Before I ultimately decided to muck the hand, I figured at least one if not two of the previous callers for a medium or bigger wired pair. In addition, I also considered the posibility that the original raiser would cap the betting when it got back to him to call the 3-bet, in which case it would have costed me 2 big bets, or $60, just to take a look at the flop. Since Party Poker doesn't particularly provide the player with adequate time to sit there in order to asses both the situation and the odds, I decided that it just wasn't worth it tossing in 2 big bets with an inferior holding, in spite of the fact that there was a huge reward potential in the event that I flopped a set or better. Admittedly, the fact that I had previously took down a large pot had a bearing on my decision. In other words, I might have called if the situation were different to look at the flop and fold if I didn't hit. Naturally, the amount of money in the pot already i.e. the pot odds that I was receiving would be too enticing to warrant a muck. One more thing I failed to mention is that I was fully aware of my early position and did not want to place myself in jeopardy should I have flopped a set with a flush or straight draw on board or just an ordinary straight draw such as 3-4-5. All of the above factored into my ultimate decision, and once again, thanks to everyone who responded. I don't recall all of your questions but I will attempt to address the ones that are still fresh in my mind. Someone asked me if I always leave the table after taking down a huge pot or, more accurately, if I was a "hit and run" player. I mentioned in my original post that I was a bit tired when I first sat down at that table, and my intention was to play maybe a half hour or so in the hope of picking up a few extra bets. Obviously it's rare to begin a session with such a nice score, and admittedly this factored into my decision on the subsequent hand. In general though, I don't consider myself a "hit and run" player, though there are times when I will leave a particular after only a brief session if I was up a decent amount just for the sake of booking a win. Remember, I consider online poker a viable means of income, and for some odd reason, the longer I play in a particular session the more I tend to give back. I think it was Grant Pittman who noted that it was foolish (maybe that's going too far) to set goals such as the one I have done so for myself. Obviously it is impossible to win all the time, and just last week I endured a string of bad luck due to some erratic and absurd play on PokerStars (see WCOOP Satellites thread). Perhaps that also subliminally had an impact on my decision to "hit and run" in this particular instance. Nevertheless, what I meant when stating my goal was that should I achieve such in a reasonably short period of time, I do not feel as much pressure later on during the week to win. For some reason, and this is probably one of my weak points, I tend to place enormous pressure on myself to win when things aren't going as planned or as well as I would like them. However, that does not mean that I begin to play marginal starting hands in an attempt to chase back lost bets. In fact, I consider myself a rather disciplined player, which is obviously one of my assets as a poker player. Once again, grazie a tutti for their insight on this topic, and I will gladly answer any further questions and look forward to any additional feedback. - Giocatore P.S. - 4 POKER, I hope your "business trip" has been a profitable one, and have a safe trip back to the Garden State. As for me, I figure the next time I will be back in NJ will be the holidays, though there is a NLHE tournament called the "Fall Classic" coming up in Brooklyn in mid-October that I may consider attending if they can guarantee a turnout of 20 or better to make my trip worthwhile, in spite of the fact that I'm just not that big of a fan of NL and, quite frankly, suck at it. :-) | ||
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