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Server Time: 12/1/2008 10:59:29 PM PACIFIC |
 Slow play pre-flop in holdem?, Andrew W, 20. Aug 2003 19:11 | ||
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| I've only been playing two months, but just about every day now. I play low limit hold em, tournament and straight ring games. I have come to a conclusion I have never read in any strategy book. I wonder what you all may think.... When playing low limit, or no-foldem holdem, don't raise pre-flop. In cash games, never. In tournament, not until the blinds get up there in relation to chip stacks to where you can steal them. My reasoning - in low limit games, there are so many loose players, there will always be people to pump up the pot. If you have a solid pocket hand, don't let the couple good players paying attention know that. The crazy ones aren't paying attention either way. This is a pre-flop strategy I'm employing. Since suited AK loses a lot anyway, I'm not raising it at a 1/2 or 2/4 table. I figure, if it hits, no one puts me on it, since I didn't raise. If it doesn't, less invested. Anyone think I'm nuts for not maximizing my profit potential? Again - this is just in nofoldem situations. | ||
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| Re: Slow play pre-flop in holdem?, flintsword, 20. Aug 2003 19:29 | ||
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| I tend to agree with you that in some situations, raising preflop with a good hand in low-limit games is just telling people to limit their loss, especially if you are rockish to begin with. Slowplaying is an acceptable strategy IN SOME CASES, but generally, you WANT to "pump up the pot" when you have the good cards, ... and if some yahoo with a marginal holding wants to help you build the pot up when you have a good hand, thank him (or her), ... then take the pot. flintsword | ||
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| Re: Slow play pre-flop in holdem?, Eihli, 20. Aug 2003 19:49 | ||
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| I agree if the game is very loose passive (standard of course for most low limit games). The main reason I would raise would be to get out hands like Axs and low suited connectors that might have hit their draw if I don't make them fold pre-flop. In these games, a raise doesn't mean shit and they'll call anyway and still hit their draw. So I guess if you know they'll stay anyway, might as well minimize your potential losses pre-flop and maximize it post-flop since they are likely to call you to the river when you do hit. | ||
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| Re: Slow play pre-flop in holdem?, grant pittman, 20. Aug 2003 20:47 | ||
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| Andrew this topic has been explored extensively. Perhaps Mike Caro would be the man to ask about this specific topic as I recall reading an article he published some years ago in Cardplayer magazine that dealt with this very strategy in low limit games. At the time I believe Mike was leaning more towards your strategy and he was being challenged by a younger up and coming poker theorist (who Mike Caro obviously had a great deal of respect for). I think the guys name was Andy Morten(this is close anyway) and his stand was that you should raise your strong hands EVEN THOUGH YOU WILL BE A DOG TO WIN against a big field. Andy's view was that with a hand like AA you had such a big edge over other strong hands and hands that contained an ace that you could more than make up for the "underdog" situation to the field since these hands were in such bad shape to your hand. There was more to it than this but that was the bottom line. I also recall that Mike Caro gave this approach of raising preflop in loose low limit games some more thought and was believing that it indeed was a better strategy in the long run. Mike should be reading this post so bring it to his attention and ask him his thoughts. He will certainly recall the name of this poker theorist who unfortunately died in a motorcycle accident. Just a thought. GRANT PITTMAN. | ||
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| Re: Slow play pre-flop in holdem?, Sredni Vashtar, 20. Aug 2003 22:15 | ||
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| Dear Grant, I believe the gentleman was the late Andrew Morton. There is a great deal of discussion of this both on rec.gambling.poker and twoplustwo.com, both of which have search features. RGP is easily searched via google groups. (I don't mean to draw people away from this site, but these discussions are excellent material for medium to advanced players as well as theory driven folks.) Now for the original poster: The question about not raising is an interesting one, and I have concluded the following after many simulations and trial runs ( I have a low limit friend, who has tilt problems, that used a raise less policy to help combat his inability to back down when challenged.). Not raising is a reasonable strategy: When you are in early position and your call wil draw others into the pot. Second, in some games it will allow you to limp reraise if the action looks right behind. If not raising causes a "Monkey see, monkey do" reaction. Many low limit players WANT to see many flops and would LOVE to be able to limp in a whole bunch. This dominoe effect might be more profitable than giving up post flop EV from the big opening hands. When you are in passive game where you get to play alot of free hands from the blinds. Your limping preflop will cause monkey see monkey MSMD and help this along. Such games can be quite profitiable. Cautions: Not raising when you have big hands preflop when people are LOCKED in already is definitely a big loser. For example, you have five limpers to you with AA, or even AJs- not raising there gives up TONS of preflop equity which is unlikely to be recuperated post flop. In cases where your hand is strong but not premium, say AQ, you ARE giving up preflop equity in most cases (especially when loosies are in), but it might be recovered to some degree if you make up for this postflop and there is a strong MSMD dominoe effect. When you have BIG hands such as AA, KK, QQ, AKs and some other biggies, you are losing a great deal by limping if you know that you will be called or reraised, and you also don't think it's a good place to limp reraise (thus LOCKING them in). Further there are other benefits to raising less preflop: If you can anticipate action to you, you can use flop betting to drive out players or build pots. Sometimes all people remember is who raised prelop. They will ignore you until you show power. this may increase your chances of winning or builing pots depending on where the betting is coming from. You wil be able to fold big hands that are doomed wihout anyone ever thinking they can run you over, cuz you didn't show power. If you use a less raise strategy: Only play passive games or games that you can turn passive with MSMD. Even in these games, raise when you have people locked in and you hold a monster or a big multiway hand. Remember that as you reach the lower mid limits you will find this strategy begins to falter. By mid limit you will find yourself in deep unless you are an expert countermeasurer. There is alot more to this but I simply don't have time. Regards. | ||
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| Re: Slow play pre-flop in holdem?, Dezperado, 21. Aug 2003 07:47 | ||
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| A couple of interesting links from Mike Caro University: Yes, My Friends, You Really Can Beat Lower-Limit No-Fold'em Games! http://www.poker1.com/newsmanager/templates/mculib_articles.asp?articleid=153&zoneid=6 Understanding The Nature Of Poker By Playing Against Everyone In the World http://www.poker1.com/newsmanager/templates/mculib_articles.asp?articleid=155&zoneid=6 | ||
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| Re: Slow play pre-flop in holdem?, Barry T, 21. Aug 2003 09:05 | ||
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| Hi. Good memoory Grant, but itis the late Andy Morton. For an amazing summary (written by Abdul Jalib) on Morton's Theorem, read: http://groups.google.com/groups?q=andy+morton+raise+caro&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=362d8826.89557436%40nntp1.ba.best.com&rnum=2 Or search Google for the original thread. But I like the summary (which is verrrry long). BarryT | ||
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| Re: Slow play pre-flop in holdem?, WilliamS, 21. Aug 2003 06:42 | ||
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| Andrew, I tend to go the other way. (The main difference here is I normally play 6 max tables) In my mind, I'm going to play tight and I want to play those cards for the most money possible. Sort of like I'm playing 2/4 with my bad cards and 4/8 with my good cards. That is an exaggeration, but my point doesn't change. If you play passively preflop, you are going to only win those hands which solidly hit your hole cards. With aggressive play, you win more(in my opinion) on those hands; as well as, a few where the flop misses your hand and those of your opponents. I agree that lots of preflop raising increases your variance, but I also believe it increases your profits if you play the rest of the hand properly. Just my take, Will | ||
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| Re: Slow play pre-flop in holdem?, donrhem, 21. Aug 2003 06:44 | ||
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| Andrew, I just went back and re-read Lee Jones' book. I was doing the same thing and after reading the book I changed what I was doing for RING games only. I applied some of what Lee said last night at a 1/2 table and killed them. I had JTs LP with two callers up front and I raised. The SB folded, BB called the other two called. Flop came TT9 and the it was bet to me. I raised again and everyone called. Turn came J bet into me again raised etc. I won with my full house. I also started raising early (UTG or one off) with KK-TT to get people out. If they call, fine. In the SNG's I will normally not even play a hand for the two first rounds. If I get big pocket pairs in the blinds or button I will call if no raise or call a very small raise. If I don't flop the nuts I will fold. See my other post about SNG Story from a hand I had last night. Are you still playing on UB? If so I would go to Party for the SNB's. They are a ton softer than UB. Don | ||
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