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Server Time: 12/1/2008 9:59:10 PM PACIFIC |
 The Value of Suited Cards, Roy Cooke, 20. Aug 2003 12:16 | ||
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| How do you assign value to suited cards? If you hold AK you are playing it if it is suited or not....So being suited just adds value tot he hand. That said, you may want to pay it differently suited over non-suited. However, in this post I am assuming the hand you are playing is being played mostly for suited value! With many hands, most of the value of the hand comes from the fact that it is suited. But being suited isn't as great a factor as some player believe...You are only around 6% to make a flush and that assumes you will stay in always on the flop to catch two runners.....Since the percentage chance of making a flush is so low the pot size needs to be large when you do make a flush in order to justify playing suited hands in the first place. There are different quantifying factors to make these hands playable. Most poker writers state that you need a lot of player volume pre-flop in order to make playing suited hands correct. That is one way of acquiring the pot size...But is a pot that is big initially pre-flop good? No...With a suited hand you want to see the flop cheap and have the texture of players in the pot that will continue to call you AFTER you make your hand...Very often they are drawing dead and opponents dead calls have MUCH more value to you than those that are drawing live (that may seem self-evident, but many players overlook this concept). So if you are thinking about playing a suited hand think about the value of the following concepts: 1). Is it likely that the pre-flop betting will be unraised with lots of players? 2). Are the players in this game of the texture that will call me if I make my hand? 3). Is it likely that another player in this game is playing a higher flush draw of the same suit? 4). What additional value does my hand hold beyond being suited? (Straight draws..High cards to pair.....ect). I understand I have stated no hard and fast rules.....My poker thought process in not formula orientated......These are just some concepts you may want to think about when you are thinking about playing a suited hand! Life is Good :-) Roy Cooke | ||
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| Re: The Value of Suited Cards, mroban, 20. Aug 2003 12:52 | ||
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| In the books I have read, most have advised (particularly in playing NL) that the value is in their ranks and being suited is just added value. I probably tended to overrate suited cards until I started to get beat alot with them (especially when making the flush by players with a better flush). I notice though that often times players online play any two suited cards which I think is really stupid. I have taken to playing suited cards based on their rank only, but perhaps a call with Axs in mid and late position with a bunch of limpers in the hand (whereas I would probably muck Axos with a lot of limpers more often than not). And recently I played KQs in a NL sitandgo, flopped a flush, bet 1/3 of my stack and got reraised all in. As difficult as it was, I managed to hit the "fold" button and the player showed me Ac7c. Whew. | ||
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| Re: The Value of Suited Cards, Mark, 20. Aug 2003 13:30 | ||
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| I really prefer AXs vs low suited connecters. I can find alot more reason to play AXs pre-flop and go further post flop than with low suited connectors. But that might be a function of my limits. I have not yet broken into the $20-$40 tables. I find that alot my small flushes in volume pots get beaten, and even low card nut straights get drawn out on. I find that AXs can take more heat. As for preflop valuations, i don't change my stradegy much for suited vs unsuited cards. In late pos. i may play two small suited cards if there are some limper or in a steal attempt, but i don't adjust my stradegy much for suited vs unsuited. My stradegy does sometimes change with AK suited in early and with AQo in late. If i have AK (or AQs) in EP, I may limp trying to get callers in case i hit a flush or other good hand. If the hand gets raised anywhere along the way, i can 3 -bet to build a huge pot or get heads up, depending on the situation. I only do this occasionally. And with AQ in late position. If there are alot of limpers, i will raise with AQs in late, but only limp with AQoffsuit. Mark | ||
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| Re: The Value of Suited Cards, Schuster, 20. Aug 2003 13:57 | ||
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| I think that a part of the value in suited cards comes from being able to take more cards off intelligently. Say for example I hold something like AT and see a flop of K T 5. Sure, I have middle pair, but if there are a fair number of opponents in the pot, you can't really play. Your ace out is tainted because of a QJ straight draw. If your AT is suited and you flop a K T 5 with a flush draw, you have a premium draw hand and can play it as such. If you back into trips or two pair, that is one more way to win. You also will have much better information if you do back into the 2 pair. Rather than guessing if someone has JQ, they will make it much more apparent if they make their nut straight. It also helps in the play of overcards. If you play an AJ and flop something like 3 8 T rainbow, you have 6 "outs", but none of them are really clean due to the danger of someone making the straight or aces up. The situations where you can slide a card off with overcards are MUCH rarer than most players think. However if you are playing AJs with a 4 flush and the 3 8 T flop, you will sometimes back into a pair and you will have much more information due to the betting to see if someone has made that straight or aces up. If there's a lot of action, you can let it go with a clear conscience. If there is very little, the overcard "out" landing might win the pot for you. I realize that flopping draws like this is rare. Without doing any math, I would suspect that it adds something around 5% to your chances of winning. But the 5% there plus the 5% from the flush draw is decent amount. I don't think I've ever read this anywhere, so feel free to rip it apart, it's just something that I've been dwelling on for a while. I think that people use programs which compare hands to the river to determine equity far too often. If you can't get past the flop, it doesn't matter if the turn and the river improve you enough to win. You have to consider whether your hand will be enough to make it to the river. One example I've been thinking on is people comparing dominated hands in terms of percentages of winning. Let's say we have an AQ vs AK. Assuming the best possible scenario, and that being AQs vs AKo and the AKo has neither of the AQs suits, then the AQ is about a 2.33 to 1 underdog to win the hand. Does this mean that being on the AK end of the confrontation is 2.33 times more valuable? I think not. Of the times that AQ flops top pair queens, AK isn't going to hang around putting in extra on the turn and the river with just ace high. Of the times AQ flops top pair aces, it will be putting in a lot of bets calling the AK down with only 3 outs. The only real scenario's where the AQ will get a decent pot from the AK is if AQ makes two pair, a straight, or a flush; fairly rare outcomes. I would suspect that the AK player will make over 4 times as much profit as the AQ player, if each played the hand over and over. The example is even more exaggerated with a hand like AA vs KK. The only time KK wins is with a set (or a bushleague straight or flush, but that is very rare). If no ace appears on the flop, KK will figure to be boss until it's quite late in the hand, and figures to lose quite a few bets in the process of figuring it out. Lee | ||
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