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Server Time: 2/13/2012 2:56:43 PM PACIFIC |
 NL HE Tourney Questions?, NOWAY, 18. Aug 2003 19:07 | ||
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| Got some questions for some of you more experienced tourney players. The last few weeks I have played in a weekly B&M NL tourney and am wondering if I am either making a run of bad plays or am I on a run of bad luck? I have 2 examples that come to mind. First I would like to explain the tourney, then give my examples of the last few hands I got pummeled on. The tourney is a 35 dollar buy in with unlimited rebuys for the first hour. You start with 600 in chips, and the blinds start at 25-50 and double every twenty minutes for that first hour. After the first hour is when the tourney really starts, you can add on either 1500 in chips for 30 dollars or 3000 in chips for 60 dollars. There are usually 55 players who start the tourney and we start at 5 tables 11 handed until 5 people are knocked out. Here are my examples..... Last week I was in approximately 2nd-4th place in chip count with 17 or 18 people left. I have approximately 15000 in chips and the blinds are at 400-800. A very unusual hand developed. I am in Big Blind. A guy who had just been moved to my table limps UTG+1, a fairly loose passive lady calls, the button (Who I had played the entire tourney next too and had a good read on, who was tight and aggressive) called, SB folds, and I in the BB look down to see Kc3c. Well naturally I check, what am I gonna do fold? Well in my eyes the most beautiful flop in the world comes 3h3d2c. I check New guy bets 6000 at the board, I for some reason, put him on a medium size pair betting hard at us to get us to fold overcards. The lady to his right calls immediately and surprisingly the button does too. I think for a a few moments and can't seem to make myself believe I am not in the lead. I decide one person would probably be dead to a 2 outer if he/she has a pair wired, maybe even 2 people with a pocket pair, and possibly the button with 54 suited calling preflop just because he had position with the opportunity to either make a big hand and win a big pot or get out cheap if he missed. I decide I can't let anyone draw for free and if someone has 22 wired or A3, I just deserve to lose. SO I go ALL IN. I was very surprised to see the new guy UTG+1 call off the other 7k in chips and the woman to his left about another 5k, I had the guy covered by like 2 grand. The button folds, and they turn over: A4 os and A5 os Both called off all those chips with gutbuster draws? Well you know what comes on the turn a 4 to make the ladies straight then a 5 on the river to make the new guys str8. I tried hard for the blood not to drip down my face from the hole in my lip I bit as the dealer counted up pretty much all my chips as he split them among the 2 gutbuster drawers. Also 2 weeks ago. I am down to final 2 tables again and am probably in 6th place, I don't know exactly how many chips I had but I had the guy to my immediate right covered easily, 2-3 times. I had just got aces wired and got no callers on an open raise. I pick up JJ wired and in MP guy to my immediate right open raises for 4000, I see he had about 3500 more. I have a good read on the table and want to narrow it down to me and him so I reraise enough to put him all in. It is folded around to him, and he says "Well i guess I played these too strong." But he does call and turns over KQ os. Flop comes rag-rag-rag, and he spikes a K on 4th street. I first kicked myself in the ass for not just calling and then setting him all in on the flop, after no overcard hit, but when mentioning my error to him, he replied "I would have been forced to call anyway because I had to much invested with my initial 4000 dollar raise." So I guess it wouldn't had mattered how I played it. Am I playing these hands poorly? I have been so close to finishing in the money yet can't seem to get there? Plus to add insult to injury all 3 players that drew out on me in both of the tourneys ended not only losing when I had the best of it in the all in situations, but all 3 ended up in the money? Am I knocking on the door, and slamming it on my own fingers? Thanks | ||
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| Re: NL HE Tourney Questions?, Dr_Monkey, 19. Aug 2003 07:47 | ||
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| I am no expert, but here is what I see, With Kc3c in the BB and a flop of 3h3d2c, I think your first mistake was when you checked. The 6000 bet has to be an attempt to buy the pot. He must figure all the callers are playing overcards and this flop missed them bad. Once he bets 6000, he is less likely to fold since he has so much invested. Also, you are potentially giving away a free card by checking. There is a str8 draw on the board and I would never want to give someone a free card. At minimum, you should have come out with a pot sized bet. That might have folded the two str8 draws. It probably would have made him re-think betting 6000. | ||
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| Re: NL HE Tourney Questions?, chasepoker, 19. Aug 2003 08:10 | ||
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| I would have stuck the bet in on the flop straight away with the pot at T3400 you just want to take it down there, once you check you are encouraging other people to play and at this stage of the tournament 3200 is good enough to pick up uncontested, which is surely what would have happend if you had bet. In my ( limited ) experience it is better to pick up a medium sized pot straight away in NL than to risk your stack here. on 19. Aug 2003 07:47 Dr_Monkey wrote: > I am no expert, but here is what I see, > With Kc3c in the BB and a flop of 3h3d2c, Chasepoker | ||
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| Re: NL HE Tourney Questions?, Schuster, 20. Aug 2003 12:31 | ||
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| > Well in my eyes the most beautiful flop in the world comes 3h3d2c. > > I check > New guy bets 6000 at the board, I for some reason, put him on a medium size > pair betting hard at us to get us to fold overcards. Here's where I see the problem. With this many people in the pot, don't try to trap people. Heads up, you might try trapping. Bet your hand right then and there. What happens if it gets checked around and someone makes a gutshot or spikes a full house with a pocket pair for free? You will likely pay them off for a lot of your chips. If you never check raise in a no limit tournament against below average players, you will not be giving up that much. If you really want to be tricky, you can overbet the pot and see if someone reads you as full of it and plays with their pocket pair. But I think the best play with 3 other opponents is just a pot sized bet. > The lady to his right calls immediately and surprisingly the button does too. So it goes bet, call, call, and it's on you? I'd have some serious doubts on whether my hand was boss right now. Since you have a big chip lead, I might just let it go. The pot is enormous at this point, over 20k chips, and people might want to gamble with a solid draw in order to put themselves in good position to win. I would prefer to let it go with a bet and 3 callers. That said, if you are going to play, I think pushing it all in was the way to go. > I have a good read on the table and want to narrow it down to me and him so I > reraise enough to put him all in. You might have the best hand here, you might not, but if you don't, you're far behind. If he has queens or better, you're in big trouble. If he has AK, AQ, or KQ, you're a coinflip. When he raises that high to begin with, from the type of player he is, it sounds as though he will call for the rest of his chips with anything that was good enough to open raise with. Why risk your hips here? I would call and see a flop in this spot. > I first kicked myself in the ass for not just calling and then setting him all > in on the flop, after no overcard hit, but when mentioning my error to him, he > replied "I would have been forced to call anyway because I had to much invested > with my initial 4000 dollar raise." > So I guess it wouldn't had mattered how I played it. This is poor poker, and remember it if you play this guy again. If he's calling the rest of his chips off with just KQ overcards, you should exploit this as much as possible without risking too much yourself. Maybe if he had AK, he could think that his AK high was the best hand right now. But as it stands, he's a 3:1 dog against just an ace high. > Am I playing these hands poorly? > I have been so close to finishing in the money yet can't seem to get there? > Plus to add insult to injury all 3 players that drew out on me in both of the > tourneys ended not only losing when I had the best of it in the all in > situations, but all 3 ended up in the money? Have you read Sklansky's tournament book? Just because a play would be correct in a cash game does not make it correct in tournament play. You should avoid risking large amounts of chips with only a small edge in tournament play. I'd definately suggest you pick it up, it helped my tourney game a lot. Lee | ||
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