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Server Time: 2/13/2012 7:17:20 PM PACIFIC |
 Backstabbed by friends..., ezcheese, 18. Aug 2003 10:35 | ||
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| This had to be one of the most hurtful experiences ever... I've been playing home games with the same group of friends for a good 3 months or so... I would estimate I have played with them about 20 times... Besides me, there is only one other good player at the table, the rest are fish.... The first time I played with them, the same person would deal the entire time... but when he would rake in a pot it took too long so I volunteered to deal... we have been alternating dealing since then... I have won, on average, about $45 a sitting (1-2 hold 'em is the game) with only 2/20 sittings being losses, and about 2 more being break-evens... Now I have a tell that I know I have... when I'm dealing and I'm on a draw I hold the deck in my left hand and I kind of riffle it with my thumb (without looking)... now this forum told me to look for my tells and I realized I had this so I would hold the deck on my lap when I was thinking... obviously, this is wrong of me and after 2 sessions of doing this I was asked to stop, so I stopped and I would just keep my hands off the deck when thinking... I had 3 big win sessions in a row (93, 86, 78) about a month ago and was informed by the other good player (who also wins pretty consistently) that everyone else thought I cheated and were trying to catch me... I WAS PISSED! I felt extremely insulted and hurt that my friends would think this of me... so I took a week off and then the next week I went with the intention of not touching the deck... didn't touch the deck... invested 40... got down to all-in, won, kept winning til I ended with $42, $2 up... felt that this made me look bad, so I kept refusing to deal (for the most part) and kept winning... Last night we were having our usual home game, and I was dealing as little as possible, there were actually times when I refused to deal and the guy who was leading this "ezcheese cheats" idea would refuse also... leaving us not playing for a solid 3-5 minutes, til I finally called him a baby and started to deal... well, we decided it would be fun to play some no-limit and during the second hand I was in LP and got AA... board was K78J3 and I was just betting huge, ended up winning... my friend made the comment "wow, AA 2 hands into no-limit, what a coincidence"... I asked him dude, I thought I was screwed by two-pair, so I wasn't betting big... he told me that I knew what he held so it didn't matter... I immediately stopped dealing... by the end of the night I was up $42 and we were cashing out... but they refused to give me my money... they told me that they were sick of me cheating and I owed them all an apology... the only one who stuck up for me (and still does) is the good player... I was told by another friend that he didn't want to believe it either, until he saw me cup an ace on that AA hand... I was like "WHAT!? I was like 5 players back, you're telling me you honestly believe I cupped 5 cards? Plus another 12 or something for the other ace? Plus know the exact order of every card to come because that is the only way I would've known what he held in that hand!" Absolutely rediculous... I mean, I do some "cut-shuffling" (where you take the bottom half of the deck, throw some on top, them some more, then the last few) and although I can't see them, someone to my left or right can and if they see an ace go in the top part and it goes to me (after 5 other cards) they will think i am cheating if they are looking for any way to believe it... they completely ignored the fact that I wasn't dealing at all that night, I was still winning, and that I had been trying for the past month to do everything in my power to get them to stop thinking I cheated. they refused to give me my money and I told them that even if they thought I cheated before, I dealt like 6 total hands that night and I earned that money fair and square (which should have proved I didn't cheat, since I won my average anyways) so they should just give me my money and I wouldn't play with them anymore... we were arguing for a good 30 minutes... Needless to say, They didn't give me my $42 I won, I have lost 3 good friends of mine over this, and I am not welcome in their games anymore... the good player still sticks up for me and will play in home games that I hold... I am extremely hurt by this and don't know how I should take it... I don't really know what comments I expect from this, maybe what to do? How I should feel? Similar stories?? I am just REALLY REALLY upset right now... | ||
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| Re: Backstabbed by friends..., 4 POKER, 18. Aug 2003 10:54 | ||
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| Hey ezcheese, I'm sorry you're so upset right now and that is sad that your friends thought that of you...it really is. How long have you been good friends? I wouldn't think that a really good friend would ever pass judgement like that.....they should know you by now. Maybe they were jealous and couldn't handle you winning all the time. But in my opinion ez, your real friends should never be jealous...they should be happy for your wins, or if they can't take losing, then they shouldn't be playing. Give it some time, take it as a learning experience in life and hopefully things will resolve and they can apologize for their accusations. Forget about the money they owe you, it's not important. You know you didn't cheat, and that's all that matters. They still have to live with themselves. Feel sorry for them right now buddy and move on. Sorry again, Dave | ||
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| Re: Backstabbed by friends..., ezcheese, 18. Aug 2003 13:14 | ||
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| I know that friends should be happy for me.. but I also understand that it's THEIR money, so they can't be too happy... I really can't believe I lost friends over this... I guess I paid $42 for a life lesson like gary ford said. p.s. I was thinking about finding out the aliases of the two of them that play at party poker and take all their money online... but I don't want to play anywhere but UB if I do start to play. | ||
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| Re: Backstabbed by friends..., Carl Heydman, 18. Aug 2003 11:37 | ||
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| Hey ezcheese, I wouldn't play with someone I expected of cheating but these guys kept you in the game! More then once! They let you deal!!!! Sounds to me like they are sore losers, (key word is losers), and until you LOSE all the money back to them or at least stop taking money from them, they are going to use this sorry excuse for their losses. Find a new game. Good luck. | ||
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| Re: Backstabbed by friends..., gary ford, 18. Aug 2003 13:10 | ||
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| on 18. Aug 2003 10:35 ezcheese wrote: > This had to be one of the most hurtful experiences ever... > > I've been playing home games with the same group of friends for a good 3 months > or so... I would estimate I have played with them about 20 times... Besides me, > there is only one other good player at the table, the rest are fish.... > > The first time I played with them, the same person would deal the entire > time... but when he would rake in a pot it took too long so I volunteered to > deal... we have been alternating dealing since then... I have won, on average, > about $45 a sitting (1-2 hold 'em is the game) with only 2/20 sittings being > losses, and about 2 more being break-evens... > > Now I have a tell that I know I have... when I'm dealing and I'm on a draw I > hold the deck in my left hand and I kind of riffle it with my thumb (without > looking)... now this forum told me to look for my tells and I realized I had > this so I would hold the deck on my lap when I was thinking... obviously, this > is wrong of me and after 2 sessions of doing this I was asked to stop, so I > stopped and I would just keep my hands off the deck when thinking... > > I had 3 big win sessions in a row (93, 86, 78) about a month ago and was > informed by the other good player (who also wins pretty consistently) that > everyone else thought I cheated and were trying to catch me... I WAS PISSED! I > felt extremely insulted and hurt that my friends would think this of me... so I > took a week off and then the next week I went with the intention of not touching > the deck... didn't touch the deck... invested 40... got down to all-in, won, > kept winning til I ended with $42, $2 up... felt that this made me look bad, so > I kept refusing to deal (for the most part) and kept winning... > > Last night we were having our usual home game, and I was dealing as little as > possible, there were actually times when I refused to deal and the guy who was > leading this "ezcheese cheats" idea would refuse also... leaving us not playing > for a solid 3-5 minutes, til I finally called him a baby and started to deal... > well, we decided it would be fun to play some no-limit and during the second > hand I was in LP and got AA... board was K78J3 and I was just betting huge, > ended up winning... my friend made the comment "wow, AA 2 hands into no-limit, > what a coincidence"... I asked him dude, I thought I was screwed by two-pair, so > I wasn't betting big... he told me that I knew what he held so it didn't > matter... I immediately stopped dealing... > > by the end of the night I was up $42 and we were cashing out... but they > refused to give me my money... they told me that they were sick of me cheating > and I owed them all an apology... the only one who stuck up for me (and still > does) is the good player... I was told by another friend that he didn't want to > believe it either, until he saw me cup an ace on that AA hand... I was like > "WHAT!? I was like 5 players back, you're telling me you honestly believe I > cupped 5 cards? Plus another 12 or something for the other ace? Plus know the > exact order of every card to come because that is the only way I would've known > what he held in that hand!" Absolutely rediculous... I mean, I do some > "cut-shuffling" (where you take the bottom half of the deck, throw some on top, > them some more, then the last few) and although I can't see them, someone to my > left or right can and if they see an ace go in the top part and it goes to me > (after 5 other cards) they will think i am cheating if they are looking for any > way to believe it... they completely ignored the fact that I wasn't dealing at > all that night, I was still winning, and that I had been trying for the past > month to do everything in my power to get them to stop thinking I cheated. > > they refused to give me my money and I told them that even if they thought I > cheated before, I dealt like 6 total hands that night and I earned that money > fair and square (which should have proved I didn't cheat, since I won my average > anyways) so they should just give me my money and I wouldn't play with them > anymore... we were arguing for a good 30 minutes... Needless to say, They didn't > give me my $42 I won, I have lost 3 good friends of mine over this, and I am not > welcome in their games anymore... the good player still sticks up for me and > will play in home games that I hold... > > I am extremely hurt by this and don't know how I should take it... I don't > really know what comments I expect from this, maybe what to do? How I should > feel? Similar stories?? I am just REALLY REALLY upset right now... EZ---Consider this a life experience It will help teach you how to differenciate between a friend--and an acquaintance masquerading as a friend. Home games are a slice of life--they say you never know a man unil you play poker with them. Remain secure in the knowledge that you did not cheat and move on. Later in life you'll be doing business with "friends" who will exhibit similar behavior. again. treat this as a lesson in life and at a very low cost. Gary | ||
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| Re: Backstabbed by friends..., Eaglesfan1, 18. Aug 2003 21:02 | ||
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| damn, sorry man, that really sucks. If you win a big tournament or a lot of money online, let them know somehow, then maybe they'll think, hey he is really a good player. I dunno, just that really sucks. ;(, being accused of cheating is the worst thing EVER. | ||
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| Re: Backstabbed by friends..., MozMan, 18. Aug 2003 21:23 | ||
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| Hey ez- I'm really sorry to hear that. I know it's tough to hear, but you really only have one friend there, and that's the guy who stood behind you. I only play home games VERY seldomly, and rarely the same game twice, and mainly for this reason; there is no impartial authority. Of course, I'm fortunate to live so close to a large poker room; and it's hard to accuse me of cupping a card or two when the casino dealer is doing the deed. Anyway, I know you are hurt, but you need to put these guys behind you and forget the money. You learned a valuable lesson, and the best thing to do is move on. -Moz "mmmm.... open faced club sand wedge." | ||
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| Re: Backstabbed by friends..., Harold Pierce, Jr., 19. Aug 2003 00:09 | ||
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| The main problem here is that the players in this home group are totally unware (i.e., downright ignorant) of how extremely difficult it is to cheat by manipulating a deck of unmarked and physically unaltered cards. Check you local pub. library to see if these books are available: "Marked Cards and Loaded Dice" by Frank Garcia "How to Spot Card Sharps and their Methods" by Sidney H. Radner "The Expert at the Card Table A Treatise on the Science and Art of Manipulating Cards" by S. W. Erdnase. This book was first published in 1902 and the author's real name is E.S. Andrews. It was reprinted in 1963 by The Charles T. Powner Co. (Chicago. IL.) and covers everyting related to manipulating and cheating with cards, If anyone of these books are available, you might give it to one of your accusers so he learn of the quite difficult physical skills that must be mastered to cheat with cards. In a home game you should use two decks of cards of contrasting colors. When a hand is finished, the dealer gathers the cards, shuffles them and passes the deck to the player to the left of the new dealer. This method greatly speeds up the game. There should be a minium of 5 riffle shuffles, and the overhand shuffle should never be used since it doesn't mix up the cards well. MouseEars | ||
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| More shuffling advice, Easy E, 19. Aug 2003 07:59 | ||
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| Harold, I like to mix in an overhand shuffle or two, between multiple riffles, so the top and bottom cards can't be tracked as easily Also, one last suggestion, if you're concerned about card mechanics or there are accusations/suspicions of cheating: Person who was the previous dealer gathers and shuffles the cards. Person 1 to the right of the shuffler cuts the deck by breaking out the stacked deck as detailed below. Previous dealer now passes the cards to the new dealer, who can leave them stand or cut them in half again as they choose before they deal. That way, 3 people have to be involved in order to stack the deck in a major way, I believe. When cutting the cards, do it like this: Stacked deck, in sections: A B C D Split stacks (preferably not the same size) onto table: D C B A Restack by leapfrogging, picking up in this order: B D C A (Try it, you'll see it's a fairly natural back and forth motion, using one hand, to drop the four piles - going right, or left- then move your arm back and leapfrog over A, pick up B, then D ... and then swing back the other way again for C and A) Final deck is now: B D C A The bottom card and the top card from the shuffle are buried in the deck, so it cuts down on ability to stack the deck to get certain cards . A good card mechanic can probably arrange these as they want, but if you combine cutters (AND if the new dealer cuts again as they choose or not), it would seem to me to be VERY tough for anyone to arrange a deck successfully.... and if they do, they'd have to have help. Maybe any amateur magicians out there can comment on or validate this approach. | ||
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| Re: Backstabbed by friends..., WilliamS, 19. Aug 2003 07:37 | ||
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| EZ, Two things: 1) I think it is a good policy not to play for any substantial stakes with friends that you want to keep. If they are good friends make sure the stakes are small enough no one cares. In my opinion, playing small enough no one cares makes me not want to play. 2) I had a similar experience. I live in a small town and we had a weekly, small stakes game going. I was killing the game for about a 100 dollars a night playing quarter ante games. A new player came in and really upped the stakes. We started playing a lot of 7/27 with $1 bets with a $10 bet on the end with a declare. This game called for about 3 to 4 times as big a "nightly" bankroll as the normal games. No one argued too much (I wasn't the host) and I didn't mind the higher stakes. However, within a couple weeks this player started calling himself all-in when he was on a draw and no money left on the table; but when he held a pat hand he would go to his wallet. He and the player that brought him also played a little "buddy poker" (not raising each other when one was drawing to a high hand etc) I considered this collusion. I chose to quit coming to the game rather than lose a friend. This isn't sour grapes I was still posting a substantial profit, however I won't allow myself to play in a game that I don't think is "square". The game broke up and we haven't played since. Don't lose any sleep over this when there are so many readily accessible games over the internet. I hate you lost friends that really sucks; but learn a lesson and move on. Will | ||
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| Fault on BOTH sides, Easy E, 19. Aug 2003 08:31 | ||
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| Primarily theirs (you might have to redefine what "friends" means, either for you or for them), but some of your actions, coupled with your winning record, could raise suspicion if they don't know you that well. Evidently they don't TRUST you, so I'm not sure how good these "friends" really were. I'm just going to focus on how they might interpret your history- see if you can see this from their perspective, especially if they are as suspicious as you are presenting here: on 18. Aug 2003 10:35 ezcheese wrote: > This had to be one of the most hurtful experiences ever... > I've been playing home games with the same group of friends for a good 3 months > or so... I would estimate I have played with them about 20 times... ....so I volunteered to deal... we have been alternating dealing since then... I have won, on average, > about $45 a sitting (1-2 hold 'em is the game) with only 2/20 sittings being > losses, and about 2 more being break-evens... Note that, you volunteered to deal half the time, and you've won 90% of the time since then. > so I would hold the deck on my lap when I was thinking... obviously, >this is wrong of me and after 2 sessions of doing this I was asked to >stop, so I stopped and I would just keep my hands off the deck when >thinking... So, you were "caught" cheating, and told to stop, in the past > I had 3 big win sessions in a row (93, 86, 78) about a month ago and now your wins were escalating in value > everyone else thought I cheated and were trying to catch me... I WAS > PISSED! I felt extremely insulted and hurt that my friends would think > this of me... You should worry less about your reaction and more about theirs, at least if you want to make sure that "the word" doesn't get spread about you. > so I took a week off the cheat hides because he got caught >and then the next week I went with the intention of not touching > the deck... didn't touch the deck... invested 40... got down to all-in, >won, kept winning til I ended with $42, $2 up... felt that this made me >look bad, so I kept refusing to deal (for the most part) and kept >winning... the cheat is trying to show that s/he's not a cheat by playing "honestly".. and only won a little, or his/her "fair" share, while making a big deal about "not dealing" > Last night we were having our usual home game, and I was dealing >as little as possible, there were actually times when I refused to >deal and the guy who was leading this "ezcheese cheats" idea >would refuse also... leaving us not playing > for a solid 3-5 minutes, til I finally called him a baby and started to deal... (ED NOTE: One break- I'm confused here- are you saying that everyone just SAT THERE because you and he refused to deal?) > well, we decided it would be fun to play some no-limit and during the second > hand I was in LP and got AA... (ED NOTE #2: I take it you were the dealer on this hand?) >board was K78J3 and I was just betting huge, > ended up winning... my friend made the comment "wow, AA 2 hands into no-limit, > what a coincidence"... I asked him dude, I thought I was screwed by two-pair, so > I wasn't betting big... The cheater lies about not betting big (ED NOTE #3: unless I misunderstand what "I was just betting huge" means) >he told me that I knew what he held so it didn't > matter... I immediately stopped dealing... cheater caught again and stops dealing > > by the end of the night I was up $42 and we were cashing out... but they > refused to give me my money... they told me that they were sick of me cheating > and I owed them all an apology... (ED NOTE: You're screwed. When they refuse to pay you, there isn't much of a chance of repairing your image IMO) >the only one who stuck up for me (and still > does) is the good player... I was told by another friend that he didn't want to > believe it either, until he saw me cup an ace on that AA hand... I was like > "WHAT!? I was like 5 players back, you're telling me you honestly believe I > cupped 5 cards? Plus another 12 or something for the other ace? Plus know the > exact order of every card to come because that is the only way I would've known > what he held in that hand!" This does NOT sound like something that will get your reputation off the hook. It sounds like something a cheat WOULD say, IMO >they completely ignored the fact that I wasn't dealing at > all that night, (ED NOTE: You're contradicting yourself here, you evidently WERE dealing some hands) > that I had been trying for the past > month to do everything in my power to get them to stop thinking I cheated. Think about how THIS statement sounds for a minute, especially in this situation. >I told them that even if they thought I > cheated before, I dealt like 6 total hands that night and I earned that money > fair and square (which should have proved I didn't cheat, since I won my average > anyways) so they should just give me my money and I wouldn't play with them > anymore... This practically says that you are admitting to be a cheat, depending on how close to this your actual words were > we were arguing for a good 30 minutes... Needless to say, They didn't > give me my $42 I won, I have lost 3 good friends of mine over this, and I am not > welcome in their games anymore... the cheat won't stop arguing or let it go. After winning so much money, s/he wants a measley $42 when busted... [ED NOTE- how good could these friends be if they a) assume you're a cheat and b) are arguing over $42] > I am extremely hurt by this and don't know how I should take it... I don't > really know what comments I expect from this, maybe what to do? How I should > feel? Similar stories?? I am just REALLY REALLY upset right now... EASY E- Okay, I'm done with wearing their shoes. I'm not sure there is anything you can do to repair this situation. You might try approaching them in a few months, try to re-establish a friendship outside of poker, if these "friends" are important to you. I would not, repeat NOT, try to play poker with those three again- if you would dare to win money again, you'll just get a repeat. Takeaway? I think you made a number of mistakes here that you should take responsibility for and be aware of for the future. Unfortunately, one of your "mistakes" was winning against consistant losers, which never makes these situations go any better. There are a number of replies that address the dealing techniques- primarily, don't get in a situation where you are doing a majority of the dealing: dealing should be a shared task to eliminate one aspect of this risk. I think you just have to move on, accept the painful lesson, realize that your "good friends" may not have been as good as you thought, and find another game to play in. Just my two pence- hope it helps in some way. | ||
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| Re: Fault on BOTH sides, ezcheese, 19. Aug 2003 10:51 | ||
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| OK, I see what you're saying about wearing their shoes... but I just don't see how they can ignore the fact that I dealt a MINIMAL amount of times since I was informed that they thought I cheated (they didn't know I knew) and I was still winning big... to me, that just proves that they were set on thinking I cheated and would overlook anything that disproved their theory, but yet take very strongly into account everything that supported it. | ||
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| Re: Fault on BOTH sides, Easy E, 19. Aug 2003 11:31 | ||
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| on 19. Aug 2003 10:51 ezcheese wrote: > OK, I see what you're saying about wearing their shoes... but I just don't see how they > can ignore the fact that I dealt a MINIMAL amount of times since I was informed that they > thought I cheated > just proves that they were set on thinking I cheated and would overlook anything that disproved their theory, Exactly. Primarily the responsibility for assuming you were a cheater is on them. One lesson- losing poker and losing people don't mix well. Another lesson- cheating accusations are nefarious in effect. Just be aware of the things that you might do innocently that can be interpreted as cheating and make sure you don't add fuel to the fire. If you remain a winning player, someone will always assume you are cheating. good luck | ||
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| Re: Backstabbed by friends..., noiseboy, 19. Aug 2003 08:34 | ||
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| WOW, that's not very cool on their part at all. Realize that a lot of people don't realize that there is strategy in poker, and believe it is a game of mostly luck; therefore, if you win more than your fair share, it makes them suspicious. I think you need to find some new poker friends, ones who won't rob you. I play in a home game where there is little doubt that I am the best player, and I win money at least 2 of 3 times I play. By comparison, nobody has ever accused me of any shenanigans, they know I play a lot more than them (in tournaments and such) and don't really seem to mind losing at the stakes we play. | ||
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| Re: Backstabbed by friends..., Big_Slick, 19. Aug 2003 09:41 | ||
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| These are the type of people who lose their money on Party and proceed to rant and rave about how online poker is fixed. If these people were truly your friends, they wouldn't have acted like a bunch of asses. For Christmas, I'd mail them each a copy of Poker For Dummies. | ||
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| Re: Backstabbed by friends..., ezcheese, 19. Aug 2003 10:53 | ||
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| HAHA, I'm just going to play home games with my one friend that stuck up for me and a new group, and he will relay to them how I still win consistently (I am confident enough to feel that I can beat anyone my age). | ||
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| Re: Backstabbed by friends..., Mark, 19. Aug 2003 11:30 | ||
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| That really sucks, but now you know those guys aren't really your friends. For $42, that's a pretty cheap price. The upside to this is that you didn't find out what kind of people they really are when you had to rely on them. When you were told that some of the guys were thinking you were a cheat, I would have either stopped playing with them alltogether or confronted them about it, and i would definately not deal. When you got into that situation where no one else would deal, it should have been pretty obvious they were just looking for an excuse to call you a cheat out loud. That was the time to get up, cash out, leave and break off the friendships. As i was reading your post, i kept expecting that the situation was leading to a fight. Some people would say that its good you didn't hit one, some say you should have. That is really a personall decision and is up to you what you should have done, but at the point where a "friend" calls me a cheat, i would assume the friendship is over, and would not be leaving without my rightfully earned money (whether $4, $42, or $4200). You earned that money and they are theives for keeping it from you. Mark | ||
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| Re: Backstabbed by friends..., ezcheese, 19. Aug 2003 13:04 | ||
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| If I wasn't outnumbered 3 to 1 I just might have tried something, but now looking back on it I look at it like this: I had cashed out for my buy-in earlier, so I didn't LOSE any money... and $42 is what i paid to learn a life lesson and determine true friends from false ones... it's an optimistic view I guess... they're just lucky they weren't playing at my house, with my real friends, because that is a completely different outcome. | ||
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| Re: Backstabbed by friends..., LJH, 19. Aug 2003 11:54 | ||
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| EZCHEESE, YOU ARE OBVIOUSLY TOO GOOD A POKER PLAYER THAN YOUR SO CALLED FRIENDS. FIND SOME NEW FRIENDS OR ELSE OFFER TO DEAL BLINDFOLDED. LJH | ||
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