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Poker Economics, Roy Cooke, 17. Aug 2003 22:24
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Poker changes economically over stages of time..... Poker was getting tough......Then California opened up Hold'em and Stud games....Players that were struggling got all pumped up.....Now Interent Poker is pumping up the poker economy.....The WPT plus the fact Moneymaker won the WSOP and the publicity it created is creating MANY new players......Money is plentiful....The action is great.....Many borderline pro players that were struggling are doing much better.....However new players will gain experience and get much better....The evolution process will take hold and bad players will go broke.......

How long will this happy time last?

Roy Cooke
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Re: Poker Economics, jdsalinger, 17. Aug 2003 22:49
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I already start to feel the crunch. I don't think I'm playing any worse maybe a tad. But for like 3 months in a row I averaged closed to 3k a month. The last 3 months I've only average 1k. Couple of factors is that I"m playing less and haven't been playing the sitngo. Though I can see dramatically see the difference in online players. A lot of the fish are gone from the NL games and the dead money in the sitngos are not as abundant
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Re: Poker Economics, palman, 18. Aug 2003 01:35
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I've noticed similar things in the last month. It seems when I play on party there are significantly less people online on average than even a few weeks ago. I'm guessing a the rate of players going broke is outdoing the rate of newplayer influx.

Perhaps its just a down week, but it seems to me its starting to slow down a little. The dead fish in the sit n go's has dropped from four to two per ten. And I hardly see a player that I played with a month ago.
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Re: Poker Economics, beigs, 18. Aug 2003 04:32
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I think this is a termporary downswing for right now. When the new season of the WPT comes back, there will be more new people interested in playing poker and the bad players will come back. These swings will continue as long as televised poker stays popular. Just my opinion.

beigs


on 17. Aug 2003 22:49 jdsalinger wrote:
> I already start to feel the crunch. I don't think I'm playing any worse maybe a
> tad. But for like 3 months in a row I averaged closed to 3k a month. The last 3
> months I've only average 1k. Couple of factors is that I"m playing less and haven't
> been playing the sitngo. Though I can see dramatically see the difference in online
> players. A lot of the fish are gone from the NL games and the dead money in the
> sitngos are not as abundant
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Re: Poker Economics, Mike812, 18. Aug 2003 06:13
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As a econ major, I have to put in my two cents here :)

I do not think we should confuse online players with the boom in poker players. There is no doubt in my mind that the boom is contributed to the WSOP and WPT on television.

Just because there is a slight recession in online playing does not mean that there is not a boom in poker overall.

I believe Palman is correct when he states that the fish are declining on Party. I think this is for two reasons: a) The fish are better players now (because of UPF lol) b) the fish are spread out through different sites. When their bankroll is broke on Party, they will venture to UB or PlanetPoker for their promotions and play on their websites. With the boomin poker, there is also a boom in online poker. I think there is a new website opening every day. This causes many players to spread out over different sites.

I can go on and on about this topic, but I do have some sleep to catch up on from my AC trip. :)

Mike
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Re: Poker Economics, gary ford, 18. Aug 2003 14:23
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on 17. Aug 2003 22:24 Roy Cooke wrote:
> Poker changes economically over stages of time..... Poker was getting
> tough......Then California opened up Hold'em and Stud games....Players that were
> struggling got all pumped up.....Now Interent Poker is pumping up the poker
> economy.....The WPT plus the fact Moneymaker won the WSOP and the publicity it
> created is creating MANY new players......Money is plentiful....The action is
> great.....Many borderline pro players that were struggling are doing much
> better.....However new players will gain experience and get much better....The
> evolution process will take hold and bad players will go broke.......
>
> How long will this happy time last?
>
> Roy Cooke

Interesting--who would have thought that an in depth discussion of the economics of poker would occur.Some rounders must be turning over in their graves. The creation of no-foldem hold-em in California must have been like a modern day gold rush to pros and wanna bes. Now we have both the Internet and Tv converging to drive demand. Economic cycles can last, on average,. from 1 to 5 years depending on the conduct of those within that boom. Take Las Vegas real estate for instance. The boom has lasted for over 10 years and is just beginning to slow. The availability of cheap land, disullusioned Californians and savvy marketers fueled the boom and kept it going.
Plus----Las Vegas is a fun place to live and to retire.
How does the poker boom compare?. Let's take a look at the 3 prime factors.

1) THE INTERNET---
Poker on the Internet is a classic case of the haves( Party, Ultimate, Paradise and Poker stars) and the havenots ( Victorias and the other start-ups ) At one point, Party had 10, 000 players while Victorias had 9 players
The quality of their sites and their marketing savvy will determine who prospers and who dies. Its always dangerous to come late to the dance. Will the Internet continue to grow players? IMO yes they will, but the players they do grow will be more sophisticated as will those already there. The top pokerrooms in California contunued to grow ( The Bike and Commerce-- now part of WPT ) while the old Gardena clubs folded.

TV--
The WPT blazed the trail, and now ESPN is tagging along. The Travel Channel has committed to a 2nd year so you can expect a new wave with the 2nd season. The relationship with the Travel channel has helped legitamize poker to mainstream America. Poker can now come out of the closet and its Rounders/ Cowboy past Travel Channel's decision to take an exclusive option for 5 additional years will give time to develop corporate sponsorship. Tha will creat a whole new wave unlike any poker has seen. Now poker players put up all the money. Soon sites will be paying a fee to have the WPT tournaments and Corporate sponsors will add money and tie in promotions. As the tour matures, it will provide an overall boom similar to what bowling had in the 60s with the popularity of Pro Bowlers Tour on ABC.

3) The role of B&M
This will be the factor that determines the longevity of the poker boom. Eventually, most everyone will want to try the "real " thing as opposed to the "cyber " thing. Presently , most casino poker rooms are looked at as amenities, not profit centers. Unless the majority of casinos re-evaluate the profit potential of poker, the poker boom will die in 3 years
Players will be disappointed in their "real" poker experience and will gravitate back to the Internet or to their home games. This will parallel the experience of the bowling industry in the 1960s. From boom( the cover of LIfe Magazine and long waiting lists ) to bust ( widespread bankruptcies and a collapse in Japan from over 100,000 lanes to 25,00 in only 3 years )

In order to prevent this scenario from repeating, all integers of the poker industry must band together and develop a long range plan to
develop this once -in- a -lifetime opportunity. This is not just MHO, I lived the bowling experience.

seize the moment--fuel the boom-----Gary Ford
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Re: Poker Economics, Roy Cooke, 18. Aug 2003 15:03
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Hi Gary

Well thought out post...you picked three comparables I have experience with...Bowling, Las Vegas RE and poker......My three things in life I have made an effort to do well at!

Thanks for the contribution....I thought it was great!

Roy Cooke

on 18. Aug 2003 14:23 gary ford wrote:
> on 17. Aug 2003 22:24 Roy Cooke wrote:
> > Poker changes economically over stages of time..... Poker was getting
> > tough......Then California opened up Hold'em and Stud games....Players that were
>
> > struggling got all pumped up.....Now Interent Poker is pumping up the poker
> > economy.....The WPT plus the fact Moneymaker won the WSOP and the publicity it
> > created is creating MANY new players......Money is plentiful....The action is
> > great.....Many borderline pro players that were struggling are doing much
> > better.....However new players will gain experience and get much better....The
> > evolution process will take hold and bad players will go broke.......
> >
> > How long will this happy time last?
> >
> > Roy Cooke
>
> Interesting--who would have thought that an in depth discussion of the economics of
> poker would occur.Some rounders must be turning over in their graves. The creation of
> no-foldem hold-em in California must have been like a modern day gold rush to pros
> and wanna bes. Now we have both the Internet and Tv converging to drive demand.
> Economic cycles can last, on average,. from 1 to 5 years depending on the conduct of
> those within that boom. Take Las Vegas real estate for instance. The boom has lasted
> for over 10 years and is just beginning to slow. The availability of cheap land,
> disullusioned Californians and savvy marketers fueled the boom and kept it going.
> Plus----Las Vegas is a fun place to live and to retire.
> How does the poker boom compare?. Let's take a look at the 3 prime factors.
>
> 1) THE INTERNET---
> Poker on the Internet is a classic case of the haves( Party, Ultimate, Paradise and
> Poker stars) and the havenots ( Victorias and the other start-ups ) At one point,
> Party had 10, 000 players while Victorias had 9 players
> The quality of their sites and their marketing savvy will determine who prospers and
> who dies. Its always dangerous to come late to the dance. Will the Internet continue
> to grow players? IMO yes they will, but the players they do grow will be more
> sophisticated as will those already there. The top pokerrooms in California
> contunued to grow ( The Bike and Commerce-- now part of WPT ) while the old Gardena
> clubs folded.
>
> TV--
> The WPT blazed the trail, and now ESPN is tagging along. The Travel Channel has
> committed to a 2nd year so you can expect a new wave with the 2nd season. The
> relationship with the Travel channel has helped legitamize poker to mainstream
> America. Poker can now come out of the closet and its Rounders/ Cowboy past Travel
> Channel's decision to take an exclusive option for 5 additional years will give time
> to develop corporate sponsorship. Tha will creat a whole new wave unlike any poker
> has seen. Now poker players put up all the money. Soon sites will be paying a fee to
> have the WPT tournaments and Corporate sponsors will add money and tie in promotions.
> As the tour matures, it will provide an overall boom similar to what bowling had in
> the 60s with the popularity of Pro Bowlers Tour on ABC.
>
> 3) The role of B&M
> This will be the factor that determines the longevity of the poker boom. Eventually,
> most everyone will want to try the "real " thing as opposed to the "cyber " thing.
> Presently , most casino poker rooms are looked at as amenities, not profit centers.
> Unless the majority of casinos re-evaluate the profit potential of poker, the poker
> boom will die in 3 years
> Players will be disappointed in their "real" poker experience and will gravitate
> back to the Internet or to their home games. This will parallel the experience of the
> bowling industry in the 1960s. From boom( the cover of LIfe Magazine and long waiting
> lists ) to bust ( widespread bankruptcies and a collapse in Japan from over 100,000
> lanes to 25,00 in only 3 years )
>
> In order to prevent this scenario from repeating, all integers of the poker industry
> must band together and develop a long range plan to
> develop this once -in- a -lifetime opportunity. This is not just MHO, I lived the
> bowling experience.
>
> seize the moment--fuel the boom-----Gary Ford
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Re: Poker Economics, gary ford, 19. Aug 2003 00:15
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on 18. Aug 2003 15:03 Roy Cooke wrote:
> Hi Gary
>
> Well thought out post...you picked three comparables I have experience with...Bowling,
> Las Vegas RE and poker......My three things in life I have made an effort to do well at!
>
> Thanks for the contribution....I thought it was great!
>
> Roy Cooke

i live in las Vegas now . My company owned a chain of bowling centers in the 1960;s and 70's and i was involved with the PBA in the early years as both a host proprietor and as a consultant. Maybe we could meet for lunch or a drink and talk about both old times and the new times
garyford3@aol,com 228 -4211
>
> on 18. Aug 2003 14:23 gary ford wrote:
> > on 17. Aug 2003 22:24 Roy Cooke wrote:
> > > Poker changes economically over stages of time..... Poker was getting
> > > tough......Then California opened up Hold'em and Stud games....Players that were
> >
> > > struggling got all pumped up.....Now Interent Poker is pumping up the poker
> > > economy.....The WPT plus the fact Moneymaker won the WSOP and the publicity it
> > > created is creating MANY new players......Money is plentiful....The action is
> > > great.....Many borderline pro players that were struggling are doing much
> > > better.....However new players will gain experience and get much better....The
> > > evolution process will take hold and bad players will go broke.......
> > >
> > > How long will this happy time last?
> > >
> > > Roy Cooke
> >
> > Interesting--who would have thought that an in depth discussion of the economics of
> > poker would occur.Some rounders must be turning over in their graves. The creation of
>
> > no-foldem hold-em in California must have been like a modern day gold rush to pros
> > and wanna bes. Now we have both the Internet and Tv converging to drive demand.
> > Economic cycles can last, on average,. from 1 to 5 years depending on the conduct of
> > those within that boom. Take Las Vegas real estate for instance. The boom has lasted
> > for over 10 years and is just beginning to slow. The availability of cheap land,
> > disullusioned Californians and savvy marketers fueled the boom and kept it going.
> > Plus----Las Vegas is a fun place to live and to retire.
> > How does the poker boom compare?. Let's take a look at the 3 prime factors.
> >
> > 1) THE INTERNET---
> > Poker on the Internet is a classic case of the haves( Party, Ultimate, Paradise and
> > Poker stars) and the havenots ( Victorias and the other start-ups ) At one point,
> > Party had 10, 000 players while Victorias had 9 players
> > The quality of their sites and their marketing savvy will determine who prospers and
> > who dies. Its always dangerous to come late to the dance. Will the Internet continue
> > to grow players? IMO yes they will, but the players they do grow will be more
> > sophisticated as will those already there. The top pokerrooms in California
> > contunued to grow ( The Bike and Commerce-- now part of WPT ) while the old Gardena
> > clubs folded.
> >
> > TV--
> > The WPT blazed the trail, and now ESPN is tagging along. The Travel Channel has
> > committed to a 2nd year so you can expect a new wave with the 2nd season. The
> > relationship with the Travel channel has helped legitamize poker to mainstream
> > America. Poker can now come out of the closet and its Rounders/ Cowboy past Travel
> > Channel's decision to take an exclusive option for 5 additional years will give time
> > to develop corporate sponsorship. Tha will creat a whole new wave unlike any poker
> > has seen. Now poker players put up all the money. Soon sites will be paying a fee to
>
> > have the WPT tournaments and Corporate sponsors will add money and tie in promotions.
>
> > As the tour matures, it will provide an overall boom similar to what bowling had in
> > the 60s with the popularity of Pro Bowlers Tour on ABC.
> >
> > 3) The role of B&M
> > This will be the factor that determines the longevity of the poker boom. Eventually,
> > most everyone will want to try the "real " thing as opposed to the "cyber " thing.
> > Presently , most casino poker rooms are looked at as amenities, not profit centers.
> > Unless the majority of casinos re-evaluate the profit potential of poker, the poker
> > boom will die in 3 years
> > Players will be disappointed in their "real" poker experience and will gravitate
> > back to the Internet or to their home games. This will parallel the experience of the
>
> > bowling industry in the 1960s. From boom( the cover of LIfe Magazine and long waiting
>
> > lists ) to bust ( widespread bankruptcies and a collapse in Japan from over 100,000
> > lanes to 25,00 in only 3 years )
> >
> > In order to prevent this scenario from repeating, all integers of the poker industry
> > must band together and develop a long range plan to
> > develop this once -in- a -lifetime opportunity. This is not just MHO, I lived the
> > bowling experience.
> >
> > seize the moment--fuel the boom-----Gary Ford
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Re: Poker Economics, coach, 19. Aug 2003 04:27
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I do not know how to quantify it but online poker...entertainment to a lot more than we all think is likely starting to eat into other "gambling"....er gaming $$$...someone who goes to a casino monthly to throw dice may just be sitting at your table on-line and may cut back the casino experience...one thing to keep in mind.....most on-line players are playing because of convenience....and would rarely or never go to a b/m...richer bored businessmen playing from work....the outlook is great and I am playing as much as I can!!
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