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7 stud high hand, timmer, 16. Aug 2003 18:11
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** Dealing **
Dealt to BRIANTHACKER [ Jc ]
Dealt to PrincsCas [ Kh ]
Dealt to Steelers1017 [ Ks ]
Dealt to byod1 [ As ]
Dealt to Hoyleswraith [ 9h, 9c ]
Dealt to Hoyleswraith [ 2d ]
Dealt to ladybug_1495 [ Jd ]
Dealt to GallantFox [ 2h ]

Hoyleswraith bring-ins (0.25)
ladybug_1495 calls (0.25)
GallantFox folds.
BRIANTHACKER calls (0.25)
PrincsCas calls (0.25)
Steelers1017 calls (0.25)
byod1 calls (0.25)

** Dealing Fourth street **
Dealt to BRIANTHACKER [ Jc Th ]
Dealt to PrincsCas [ Kh 2c ]
Dealt to Steelers1017 [ Ks Kd ]
Dealt to byod1 [ As 6h ]
Dealt to Hoyleswraith [{9h 9c}2h 9s ]
Dealt to ladybug_1495 [ Jd Jh ]
Steelers1017 bets (0.50)
byod1 calls (0.50)
Hoyleswraith double raises (1.50)
ladybug_1495 calls (1.50)
BRIANTHACKER folds.
PrincsCas calls (1.50)
Steelers1017 calls (1)
byod1 calls (1)
At this point does any one think Steelers1017 has trip K's ?
At this point does any one think lady bug has trip J's ?
what do you think PrincsCas would call 3 cold with.?
what do you think boyd1 would over call a double raise with?

** Dealing Fifth street **
Dealt to PrincsCas [ Kh 2c 4h ]
Dealt to Steelers1017 [ Ks Kd 8h ]
Dealt to byod1 [ As 6h 6d ]
Dealt to Hoyleswraith [ [{9h 9c}2h 9s 8d ]
Dealt to ladybug_1495 [ Jd Jh 7h ]
Steelers1017 checks.
byod1 checks.
Hoyleswraith bets (1)
ladybug_1495 calls (1)
PrincsCas calls (1)
Steelers1017 calls (1)
byod1 calls (1)

what do you put each of the bettors opponents on ?
** Dealing Sixth street **
Dealt to PrincsCas [ Kh 2c 4h 6c ]
Dealt to Steelers1017 [ Ks Kd 8h 5d ]
Dealt to byod1 [ As 6h 6d 3s ]
Dealt to Hoyleswraith [ {9h 9c}2h 9s 8d Td ]
Dealt to ladybug_1495 [ Jd Jh 7h 9d ]
Steelers1017 bets (1)
byod1 folds.
Hoyleswraith raises (2) to 2
puts byod an A's up

ladybug_1495 calls (2)
PrincsCas folds.
Steelers1017 calls (1)

Hoyals puts steelers on K's and 5's (over calling a raise)
lady bug on J's with some sort of help or heart draw. (calling 2 cold)

so far what do you think of the play ?

do you agree with hoyals thinking and wagering on this hand so far?

what would you do on the river ?
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Re: 7 stud high hand, 4 POKER, 16. Aug 2003 18:52
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To analyze their hands more correctly, I would first have to know what type of players they really are. I couldn't put Ladybug's J-J board, or the guy with K-K board or the guy with the A-6-6 board on the more "likely" hands if they weren't solid players that made sound-minded decisions. Also......were they tricky types who would just check and call with trips, and are they passive enough to limp in with split Aces, split Kings, and split Jacks? What possible hands were you putting them on during the course of the hand? Did certain cards proceed to lay out on the board that could have lead you to put them on a different hand than the one you were previously putting them on? Live cards......etc.?

Two of those opponents had one of their "live" cards out on 3rd street so I wouldn't put either one of them on trips for that reason alone and for the reason that neither one of them raised coming in. But only you know if they are that passive where they would limp in opposed to raising with a high pair because you were actually in the game with these folks.

The A-6-6 board could very well have limped in with split Aces, or he could be rollled up or accidentally backed into trip sixes. Two of those three hands you have beat.

If you thought your trip nines were golden on 4th, (given that the pairs that they did have open on 4th were not as likely to have made them trips).......I probably would have raised the bet on the bigger betting round. If your trip nines were good at that point, and just called the bet on 4th, then the two Kings probably would have continued with his betting on 5th, and that's where I would have popped it if you still had the stragglers in there by then. You are much the favorite if they only have two pair because both of their overpair to your nines were laid out on 3rd making it that much harder for them to hit a bigger full house than yours, if you both connect by the river. Nobody's board looked that threatening on 4th, and there were alot of high cards out on 3rd and 4th, giving them less chances to complete a straight draw, etc.

I would have raised on a bigger betting round so I could maybe try to drive out a drawing hand or at least make him pay 2 big bets to continue. And anyone of those two big pair players would call 2 big bets if they felt that they had a chance to connect, (and did not read you correctly).....even though they would be way behind. If they're calling stations then I would have strung them along for the ride and bet my hand heavier on 5th. If they were loose and maybe aggresive, the raise you put in on 4th may be the better choice........but it sounds to me like they were just CS, or they were trapping. I still don't think the K-K hand had trips, but it is probable that the J-J hand did, because what would Ladybug have on 4th to call double bets with without having trip Jacks when 2 Kings are staring right at her? It's obvious that you have made trips here........at least to me it is. Even if you backed into two pair on 4th, you probably wouldn't chose to raise open Kings and open Jacks......But if your opponents are clueless, then they will call any raise with a big pair in hoping to connect somewhere down the line! If you're beat on 4th already, then it wouldn't matter how you played your hand there.

Maybe one (or more) of them *did* have trips but because the limit was a lower limit, they decided to build the pot by just checking and calling you?.....

On the river......if you put the players with the open pairs on just 2 pair, I would bet. If anyone is on a draw, they may just call you if they complete it. They won't call you with a pair or even two small pair, because of the big pairs that are already laid out on the board. But you *will* get paid off by all the players who have 2 big pair and I personally would make the bet on the river. If you get raised here without improving your hand, you're more than likely beat (especially if they are passive players to begin with).....but....the pot is still big enough where your call would not be incorrect either if someone raises. The player that completes his dawing hand may not even raise you on the river in fear that his hand can be beat, (which is a mistake IMO, because why play for a hand and not raise it when you make it), but that's besides the point.....alot of inexperienced players will only call you on the river. So if you think your trips are good, then make the bet. You obviously thought they were good on 4th street, so on the river now, your hand warrants a bet. Otherwise, why play it so aggresively the whole way through. If they never raised you anywhere during the hand (and they didn't), I wouldn't put them on trips and I would make the bet. And if one of them was just sandbagging the whole way......well then take a note of it. You played your hand correctly, but if you thought you were just up against two pairs, I would have raised it a little later, because even with the other player that looked like they took one off of a flush draw on 4th.....the hearts that were laid out were not that "live" anymore, so I would have let that player in as well, and then when he hits (what looks to be like a four flush) on 5th, I would make them pay 2 big bets to continue. Also....what position were you in?......Did they all check to you? Did you fill up on the river......curious?

What was the outcome timmer?


4P-
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Re: 7 stud high hand, Roy Cooke, 17. Aug 2003 08:27
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Hi Timmer

You are putting people on one hand and then playing as if they had that hand....When reading hands you need to put them on a range of hands they MAY possess and decide the best play based on that range!

Roy Cooke

on 16. Aug 2003 18:11 timmer wrote:
> ** Dealing **
> Dealt to BRIANTHACKER [ Jc ]
> Dealt to PrincsCas [ Kh ]
> Dealt to Steelers1017 [ Ks ]
> Dealt to byod1 [ As ]
> Dealt to Hoyleswraith [ 9h, 9c ]
> Dealt to Hoyleswraith [ 2d ]
> Dealt to ladybug_1495 [ Jd ]
> Dealt to GallantFox [ 2h ]
>
> Hoyleswraith bring-ins (0.25)
> ladybug_1495 calls (0.25)
> GallantFox folds.
> BRIANTHACKER calls (0.25)
> PrincsCas calls (0.25)
> Steelers1017 calls (0.25)
> byod1 calls (0.25)
>
> ** Dealing Fourth street **
> Dealt to BRIANTHACKER [ Jc Th ]
> Dealt to PrincsCas [ Kh 2c ]
> Dealt to Steelers1017 [ Ks Kd ]
> Dealt to byod1 [ As 6h ]
> Dealt to Hoyleswraith [{9h 9c}2h 9s ]
> Dealt to ladybug_1495 [ Jd Jh ]
> Steelers1017 bets (0.50)
> byod1 calls (0.50)
> Hoyleswraith double raises (1.50)
> ladybug_1495 calls (1.50)
> BRIANTHACKER folds.
> PrincsCas calls (1.50)
> Steelers1017 calls (1)
> byod1 calls (1)
> At this point does any one think Steelers1017 has trip K's ?
> At this point does any one think lady bug has trip J's ?
> what do you think PrincsCas would call 3 cold with.?
> what do you think boyd1 would over call a double raise with?
>
> ** Dealing Fifth street **
> Dealt to PrincsCas [ Kh 2c 4h ]
> Dealt to Steelers1017 [ Ks Kd 8h ]
> Dealt to byod1 [ As 6h 6d ]
> Dealt to Hoyleswraith [ [{9h 9c}2h 9s 8d ]
> Dealt to ladybug_1495 [ Jd Jh 7h ]
> Steelers1017 checks.
> byod1 checks.
> Hoyleswraith bets (1)
> ladybug_1495 calls (1)
> PrincsCas calls (1)
> Steelers1017 calls (1)
> byod1 calls (1)
>
> what do you put each of the bettors opponents on ?
> ** Dealing Sixth street **
> Dealt to PrincsCas [ Kh 2c 4h 6c ]
> Dealt to Steelers1017 [ Ks Kd 8h 5d ]
> Dealt to byod1 [ As 6h 6d 3s ]
> Dealt to Hoyleswraith [ {9h 9c}2h 9s 8d Td ]
> Dealt to ladybug_1495 [ Jd Jh 7h 9d ]
> Steelers1017 bets (1)
> byod1 folds.
> Hoyleswraith raises (2) to 2
> puts byod an A's up
>
> ladybug_1495 calls (2)
> PrincsCas folds.
> Steelers1017 calls (1)
>
> Hoyals puts steelers on K's and 5's (over calling a raise)
> lady bug on J's with some sort of help or heart draw. (calling 2 cold)
>
> so far what do you think of the play ?
>
> do you agree with hoyals thinking and wagering on this hand so far?
>
> what would you do on the river ?
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Re: 7 stud high hand river, timmer, 17. Aug 2003 18:46
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so much for losing to a 3 outer.

** Dealing River **
Dealt to Hoyleswraith [ 3h ]
Steelers1017 bets (1)
Hoyleswraith raises (2) to 2
ladybug_1495 folds.
Steelers1017 raises (2) to 3
Hoyleswraith calls (1)
** Summary **
Main Pot: $26.75 | Rake: $1
gjbeeson balance $68, sits out
BRIANTHACKER balance $40.75, lost $0.50 (folded) [ XX XX Jc Th ]
PrincsCas balance $18.75, lost $3 (folded) [ XX XX Kh 2c 4h 6c ]
Steelers1017 balance $39.25, bet $8, collected $26.75, net +$18.75 [ 5h 4s Ks Kd 8h 5d Kc ] [ a full house, Kings full of fives ]
byod1 balance $38.50, lost $3 (folded) [ XX XX As 6h 6d 3s ]
Hoyleswraith balance $48.75, lost $8 [ 9h 9c 2d 9s 8d Td 3h ] [ three of a kind, nines -- Td,9h,9c,9s,8d ]
ladybug_1495 balance $33.50, lost $5 (folded) [ XX XX Jd Jh 7h 9d XX ]
GallantFox balance $17.75, lost $0.25 (folded) [ XX XX 2h ]
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Re: 7 stud high hand river, 4 POKER, 17. Aug 2003 19:40
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on 17. Aug 2003 18:46 timmer wrote:
> so much for losing to a 3 outer.
>
> ** Dealing River **
> Dealt to Hoyleswraith [ 3h ]
> Steelers1017 bets (1)
> Hoyleswraith raises (2) to 2
> ladybug_1495 folds.
> Steelers1017 raises (2) to 3
> Hoyleswraith calls (1)
> ** Summary **
> Main Pot: $26.75 | Rake: $1
> gjbeeson balance $68, sits out
> BRIANTHACKER balance $40.75, lost $0.50 (folded) [ XX XX Jc Th ]
> PrincsCas balance $18.75, lost $3 (folded) [ XX XX Kh 2c 4h 6c ]
> Steelers1017 balance $39.25, bet $8, collected $26.75, net +$18.75 [ 5h 4s Ks Kd 8h
> 5d Kc ] [ a full house, Kings full of fives ]
> byod1 balance $38.50, lost $3 (folded) [ XX XX As 6h 6d 3s ]
> Hoyleswraith balance $48.75, lost $8 [ 9h 9c 2d 9s 8d Td 3h ] [ three of a kind,
> nines -- Td,9h,9c,9s,8d ]
> ladybug_1495 balance $33.50, lost $5 (folded) [ XX XX Jd Jh 7h 9d XX ]
> GallantFox balance $17.75, lost $0.25 (folded) [ XX XX 2h ]



Timmer,

{Could it be possible that Steelers just shuffled his hole cards to make it appear that he caught the third King on the river? How long did you play with guy? Was he capable of just limping in with 2 Kings, catch the third King on 4th, bet it and then just check call all the way once you decided to raise the field on 4th? Was he that passive of a player? Because if he didn't start with split Kings, that would mean that he played a King door with a 4 and a 5 in the hole, all offsuit. He couldn't of had pocket fives because he would have had three fives as well with his three Kings because he caught a five on the board. So if he didn't shuffle, than he started with a really bad hand}.

That being said........

Here's where I disagree with your betting......(The raise on the river without improvement).

You played it right during the course of the hand {if you thought that your trip nines were the best}.......but why would you raise him now on the river without improving? You had Ladybug who is behind you, and when open Kings now decides to bet the river, and you put in a raise there......only a player with a pat hand or a player who holds Acs up or better should call 2 raises cold when looking at open Kings who bets, and a player who choses to raise that hand. Remember......you had Ladybug who had open Jacks, and would only call if she makes at least three Jacks (which would have you beat), or a made completed hand. She's not gonna call 2 bets cold with Jacks up when looking at your two boards.

Keep in mind.......even if you make it 2 bets with trip nines......you won't be able to fold off a straight or a flush from a player who is yet to act......so you'll only be costing yourself extra bets here. LB could have also been on a drawing hand as well as having open Jacks.

Now....if you just call his bet on the river and LB now raises his board....if the open Kings reraises.....now you *know* that your trip nines are no good by at least one or both of those players.

Do you think it was possible for Steelers to check and call all the way with open Kings and now put in a bet on the river with just Kings up? And would LB call 2 bets cold with only Jacks up? Probably not.....but she might call one bet if she has two pair and thought she had a slim chance at winning the pot perhaps. If so, you would still gain the 2 big bets if Steelers only has Kings up...but if he improves his hand, which in most likely would be a pat hand, he will reraise your board, thus costing you 3 big bets total, and if he just has 3 Kings, then he would still beat your trip nines. I think you could have made more by just calling if you did indeed hold the best hand, by getting an overcaller to pay you off with a lesser hand, and you would also save more if now he raises you back.

What hand did you give him on the river that made you pay off the reraise? Did you only put him on Kings up? Was he capable of reraising with 2 pair when his 2 Kings were open......or did you feel that the pot was big enough to pay off.........or were you just frustrated that he caught good and reluctantly paid it off knowing you were beat?

IMO, Just calling on the river would have been the more correct play, but I'm curious as to what your thinking process was that lead you to raise him now on the river. Thanks.


4P-
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Re: 7 stud high hand river, Paul Stine, 18. Aug 2003 05:58
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If Steelers1017 had trip Kings on 4th he sure played like a wimp the whole way and didn't make up for it with two extra bets on the river. He had two or three people trapped between himself and timmer. A raise on 5th or 6th would have had the same effect or been more profitable.

That said, when a dormant (or doormat for that matter) player comes out betting on the river after checking and calling the entire way, I agree that it is flat call time assuming you don't improve and probably even if you do improve to less than a monster, like quads in this situation.

Paul Stine
College Station, TX


on 17. Aug 2003 19:40 4 POKER wrote:
> on 17. Aug 2003 18:46 timmer wrote:
> > so much for losing to a 3 outer.
> >
> > ** Dealing River **
> > Dealt to Hoyleswraith [ 3h ]
> > Steelers1017 bets (1)
> > Hoyleswraith raises (2) to 2
> > ladybug_1495 folds.
> > Steelers1017 raises (2) to 3
> > Hoyleswraith calls (1)
> > ** Summary **
> > Main Pot: $26.75 | Rake: $1
> > gjbeeson balance $68, sits out
> > BRIANTHACKER balance $40.75, lost $0.50 (folded) [ XX XX Jc Th ]
> > PrincsCas balance $18.75, lost $3 (folded) [ XX XX Kh 2c 4h 6c ]
> > Steelers1017 balance $39.25, bet $8, collected $26.75, net +$18.75 [ 5h 4s Ks Kd 8h
> > 5d Kc ] [ a full house, Kings full of fives ]
> > byod1 balance $38.50, lost $3 (folded) [ XX XX As 6h 6d 3s ]
> > Hoyleswraith balance $48.75, lost $8 [ 9h 9c 2d 9s 8d Td 3h ] [ three of a kind,
> > nines -- Td,9h,9c,9s,8d ]
> > ladybug_1495 balance $33.50, lost $5 (folded) [ XX XX Jd Jh 7h 9d XX ]
> > GallantFox balance $17.75, lost $0.25 (folded) [ XX XX 2h ]
>
>
>
> Timmer,
>
> {Could it be possible that Steelers just shuffled his hole cards to make it appear that
> he caught the third King on the river? How long did you play with guy? Was he capable of
> just limping in with 2 Kings, catch the third King on 4th, bet it and then just check call
> all the way once you decided to raise the field on 4th? Was he that passive of a player?
> Because if he didn't start with split Kings, that would mean that he played a King door
> with a 4 and a 5 in the hole, all offsuit. He couldn't of had pocket fives because he
> would have had three fives as well with his three Kings because he caught a five on the
> board. So if he didn't shuffle, than he started with a really bad hand}.
>
> That being said........
>
> Here's where I disagree with your betting......(The raise on the river without
> improvement).
>
> You played it right during the course of the hand {if you thought that your trip nines
> were the best}.......but why would you raise him now on the river without improving? You
> had Ladybug who is behind you, and when open Kings now decides to bet the river, and you
> put in a raise there......only a player with a pat hand or a player who holds Acs up or
> better should call 2 raises cold when looking at open Kings who bets, and a player who
> choses to raise that hand. Remember......you had Ladybug who had open Jacks, and would
> only call if she makes at least three Jacks (which would have you beat), or a made
> completed hand. She's not gonna call 2 bets cold with Jacks up when looking at your two
> boards.
>
> Keep in mind.......even if you make it 2 bets with trip nines......you won't be able to
> fold off a straight or a flush from a player who is yet to act......so you'll only be
> costing yourself extra bets here. LB could have also been on a drawing hand as well as
> having open Jacks.
>
> Now....if you just call his bet on the river and LB now raises his board....if the open
> Kings reraises.....now you *know* that your trip nines are no good by at least one or both
> of those players.
>
> Do you think it was possible for Steelers to check and call all the way with open Kings
> and now put in a bet on the river with just Kings up? And would LB call 2 bets cold with
> only Jacks up? Probably not.....but she might call one bet if she has two pair and thought
> she had a slim chance at winning the pot perhaps. If so, you would still gain the 2 big
> bets if Steelers only has Kings up...but if he improves his hand, which in most likely
> would be a pat hand, he will reraise your board, thus costing you 3 big bets total, and if
> he just has 3 Kings, then he would still beat your trip nines. I think you could have made
> more by just calling if you did indeed hold the best hand, by getting an overcaller to pay
> you off with a lesser hand, and you would also save more if now he raises you back.
>
> What hand did you give him on the river that made you pay off the reraise? Did you only
> put him on Kings up? Was he capable of reraising with 2 pair when his 2 Kings were
> open......or did you feel that the pot was big enough to pay off.........or were you just
> frustrated that he caught good and reluctantly paid it off knowing you were beat?
>
> IMO, Just calling on the river would have been the more correct play, but I'm curious as
> to what your thinking process was that lead you to raise him now on the river. Thanks.
>
>
> 4P-
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Re: 7 stud high hand river, timmer, 18. Aug 2003 20:09
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I agree 6 th street is kind of late to make a stand if he would have checked 6th but lead out on the river I would have been much more worried about a reraise on the river

on 18. Aug 2003 05:58 Paul Stine wrote:
> If Steelers1017 had trip Kings on 4th he sure played like a wimp the whole way and didn't make
> up for it with two extra bets on the river. He had two or three people trapped between himself
> and timmer. A raise on 5th or 6th would have had the same effect or been more profitable.
>
> That said, when a dormant (or doormat for that matter) player comes out betting on the river
> after checking and calling the entire way, I agree that it is flat call time assuming you don't
> improve and probably even if you do improve to less than a monster, like quads in this
> situation.
>
> Paul Stine
> College Station, TX
>
>
> on 17. Aug 2003 19:40 4 POKER wrote:
> > on 17. Aug 2003 18:46 timmer wrote:
> > > so much for losing to a 3 outer.
> > >
> > > ** Dealing River **
> > > Dealt to Hoyleswraith [ 3h ]
> > > Steelers1017 bets (1)
> > > Hoyleswraith raises (2) to 2
> > > ladybug_1495 folds.
> > > Steelers1017 raises (2) to 3
> > > Hoyleswraith calls (1)
> > > ** Summary **
> > > Main Pot: $26.75 | Rake: $1
> > > gjbeeson balance $68, sits out
> > > BRIANTHACKER balance $40.75, lost $0.50 (folded) [ XX XX Jc Th ]
> > > PrincsCas balance $18.75, lost $3 (folded) [ XX XX Kh 2c 4h 6c ]
> > > Steelers1017 balance $39.25, bet $8, collected $26.75, net +$18.75 [ 5h 4s Ks Kd 8h
> > > 5d Kc ] [ a full house, Kings full of fives ]
> > > byod1 balance $38.50, lost $3 (folded) [ XX XX As 6h 6d 3s ]
> > > Hoyleswraith balance $48.75, lost $8 [ 9h 9c 2d 9s 8d Td 3h ] [ three of a kind,
> > > nines -- Td,9h,9c,9s,8d ]
> > > ladybug_1495 balance $33.50, lost $5 (folded) [ XX XX Jd Jh 7h 9d XX ]
> > > GallantFox balance $17.75, lost $0.25 (folded) [ XX XX 2h ]
> >
> >
> >
> > Timmer,
> >
> > {Could it be possible that Steelers just shuffled his hole cards to make it appear that
> > he caught the third King on the river? How long did you play with guy? Was he capable of
> > just limping in with 2 Kings, catch the third King on 4th, bet it and then just check call
>
> > all the way once you decided to raise the field on 4th? Was he that passive of a player?
> > Because if he didn't start with split Kings, that would mean that he played a King door
> > with a 4 and a 5 in the hole, all offsuit. He couldn't of had pocket fives because he
> > would have had three fives as well with his three Kings because he caught a five on the
> > board. So if he didn't shuffle, than he started with a really bad hand}.
> >
> > That being said........
> >
> > Here's where I disagree with your betting......(The raise on the river without
> > improvement).
> >
> > You played it right during the course of the hand {if you thought that your trip nines
> > were the best}.......but why would you raise him now on the river without improving? You
> > had Ladybug who is behind you, and when open Kings now decides to bet the river, and you
> > put in a raise there......only a player with a pat hand or a player who holds Acs up or
> > better should call 2 raises cold when looking at open Kings who bets, and a player who
> > choses to raise that hand. Remember......you had Ladybug who had open Jacks, and would
> > only call if she makes at least three Jacks (which would have you beat), or a made
> > completed hand. She's not gonna call 2 bets cold with Jacks up when looking at your two
> > boards.
> >
> > Keep in mind.......even if you make it 2 bets with trip nines......you won't be able to
> > fold off a straight or a flush from a player who is yet to act......so you'll only be
> > costing yourself extra bets here. LB could have also been on a drawing hand as well as
> > having open Jacks.
> >
> > Now....if you just call his bet on the river and LB now raises his board....if the open
> > Kings reraises.....now you *know* that your trip nines are no good by at least one or both
>
> > of those players.
> >
> > Do you think it was possible for Steelers to check and call all the way with open Kings
> > and now put in a bet on the river with just Kings up? And would LB call 2 bets cold with
> > only Jacks up? Probably not.....but she might call one bet if she has two pair and thought
>
> > she had a slim chance at winning the pot perhaps. If so, you would still gain the 2 big
> > bets if Steelers only has Kings up...but if he improves his hand, which in most likely
> > would be a pat hand, he will reraise your board, thus costing you 3 big bets total, and if
>
> > he just has 3 Kings, then he would still beat your trip nines. I think you could have made
>
> > more by just calling if you did indeed hold the best hand, by getting an overcaller to pay
>
> > you off with a lesser hand, and you would also save more if now he raises you back.
> >
> > What hand did you give him on the river that made you pay off the reraise? Did you only
> > put him on Kings up? Was he capable of reraising with 2 pair when his 2 Kings were
> > open......or did you feel that the pot was big enough to pay off.........or were you just
> > frustrated that he caught good and reluctantly paid it off knowing you were beat?
> >
> > IMO, Just calling on the river would have been the more correct play, but I'm curious as
> > to what your thinking process was that lead you to raise him now on the river. Thanks.
> >
> >
> > 4P-
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Re: 7 stud high hand river, timmer, 18. Aug 2003 07:35
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heres a senario: A guy is in late position with a K showing in a family pot there is a weak player with an A showing behind you. you can limp here with almost nothing but if you have a pair of K's you need to raise and hope the A or somebody reraises and drives off all the dead wood.

another guy showing nothing has been betting and raising. A guy with a dead pair of kings, a girl with a dead pair of jacks and an A with a small pair have been calling. ( what makes you think the A has anything here but a small pair and a big prayer? )

The guy with kings hits one of his hole cards bets and gets raised, the jacks with a flush (or even 3 jacks) calls 2 and the K's up calls. On the river the Kings bet and the guy whos been doing all the betting has 3 diamonds (at least 4 dead) and a dead straight showing, raises.

What would you call 2 cold here with ? Would you call 2 cold with J's up ?
3 jacks? a pair of J's and a busted flush ?

now you see Im looking to drive out a 3rd hand maybe a better hand and beat K's up with or with out a show down.

The pot was 25.75 for one after the reraise and he could have been re raising with his K's up if he thought they were best. remember these low limit guys are prone to tilt , play table sherriff often and reraise on a whim. in fact I saw many 12 and 15 BB pots won with hands like small and mid pairs at this table. a crying call here is in order.

this guy would always bet K's up facing a board like mine because the straights and flushes were largely dead as were the Jacks and the woman is pretty much card blind towards cards that have been folded.

I'm 99% sure Steelers hit it on the end because of his betting and his verbal reactions after the hand.

And what about all the wisdom that states multiway, play hands in a straight forward manner. especially in games with many calling players. I think steelers would have been raising on 5th street or re raising 6th street with KKK in a effort to get more money in the pot or drive out the draws. if the circumstances were reversed I would l have bet and reraised the crap out of 3 kings with a field and board like that. and why the check calling . why do that in a multi way pot with habitual callers with would be almost certainly the best hand ? I didnt.

No I think the guy was willing to call. (for a 3 in 27 shot to win a odds sized pot.) and just got there.

But it was interesting how every bodys cards were duplicated but they still all were willing to call on 3rd and most were willing to over call 2 bets cold on 4th. I did what Mike recommends in his major poker seminar:
against weak or average players raise with strength. Given this board I felt trip 9's were a strong hand.
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Re: 7 stud high hand river, 4 POKER, 18. Aug 2003 07:53
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I do think that he hit his hand on the river, most definitely by the way he just checked and called you all the way, but....once he now fires a bet in on the river, I still think a call by you would have been better, instead of a raise. You're not gonna knock out Ladybug with 3 Jacks, not even for two bets. If she took all the heat during the whole hand, if she has trips, she's calling.

Now...would she call 2 bets cold with Jacks up when she's facing a raise from someone else while still facing the open pair of Kings? Probably not, and that is why IMO it would be better to just call on the river if you think she might call one bet with two pair. This way, you still make the 2 bets, it's just now one from him and one from Ladybug, as opposed to 2 bets from just Steelers if he doesn't have you beat. But....if he does have you beat...it's costing you 3 big bets when he reraises you with a made hand. (Kings full in this situation).

I do think you played your hand correctly all the way through, but I still think the raise on the river was unwarranted given the situation, that's all.
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Re: 7 stud high hand river, timmer, 18. Aug 2003 20:05
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on 18. Aug 2003 07:53 4 POKER wrote:
> I do think that he hit his hand on the river, most definitely by the way he just checked and called

He did bet out on 6th but I think given my board that was his K's up action speaking.

> you all the way, but....once he now fires a bet in on the river, I still think a call by you would
> have been better, instead of a raise. You're not gonna knock out Ladybug with 3 Jacks, not even for
> two bets. If she took all the heat during the whole hand, if she has trips, she's calling.

maybe so of course now that she knows that she hasnt a chance of filling or flushing up and is probably against one or two better hands she might very well fold. but I still think she was on a heart draw and a pair at most and missed.

People in these low limit games usually raise with trips. it is for this reason that I am convinced when I wasnt check raised on fifth my mid triplets were best. But still not a hand I really want to show down 3 ways in a raised pot. Even if it is me doing the raising. ;-)
>
> Now...would she call 2 bets cold with Jacks up when she's facing a raise from someone else while
> still facing the open pair of Kings? Probably not, and that is why IMO it would be better to just
> call on the river if you think she might call one bet with two pair. This way, you still make the 2
> bets, it's just now one from him and one from Ladybug, as opposed to 2 bets from just Steelers if he
> doesn't have you beat. But....if he does have you beat...it's costing you 3 big bets when he
> reraises you with a made hand. (Kings full in this situation).
>
> I do think you played your hand correctly all the way through, but I still think the raise on the
> river was unwarranted given the situation, that's all.

I feel river pacificity is a big mistake many players in stud (and in Hold em too) { Ask Barry T about his feelings on this front} make perhaps in this hand I took it a bit over the top.

timmer

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Re: 7 stud high hand river, 4 POKER, 18. Aug 2003 20:15
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Timmer,

When somebody bets into on the river with open kings....you are next to act with trip nines.....if you put the player *behind* you on a drawing hand, you shouldn't be raising there. It has nothing to do with playing too passive.....it is the correct play in your particular situation. Now.....if you were heads up with the Kings hand, it's a different story....but not when there's opponents behind you who are on a draw.

Remember.......it's the river now.......They're *not* going to call 2 bets cold with a busted hand or two smaller pair than Kings up. But if they complete their draw, they might raise you also....but the least they are going to do is pay it off being that was the hand they were drawing to.....so your raise there (on the river) is "unwarranted", and overly aggresive without good logic to be. You were playing your hand against the Kings up player and it seems like you didn't even bother to consider the other opponent who was there calling all those bets and raises.....and you *have* to consider every player who is in the hand with you, not just the one who you think you have beat.

This is all "river play" here....not the way you played it throughout the hand, that was fine,....but you shouldn't lose sight of the importance of how to make the most and/or lose the least when you don't improve your hand on the river. So before you make that bet, raise, etc.......just think about it for a second and then make the most accurate and sound minded decision you can make based on the possible hands you are putting ALL your opponents on.



4P-
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Re: 7 stud high hand river, timmer, 19. Aug 2003 08:01
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One more thing I have been banging Steelers quite a bit in this session as he is on my right. He has increased his call & bet frequency some and has been showing down some pretty crappy cards lately.

I am well aware of the ramifications of raising out the field . I felt this player would fold medium strength to a double bet if she though she was beat in 1 or 2 spots.

Sometimes poker can be somewhat situational (right Roy ?)

sounds good if the draw re raise or even call I get away from my hand for 1 extra any way if K's 3 bet.
.
Here the senario :
.
They call with a better hand - I lose an extra bet
they fold a better hand - I gain the pot (25 bets in this situation)
draw re raise with a better hand - I fold and lose a extra bet
they call with a worse hand- I gain an extra bet each
draw fold and k's up call and lose- I gain extra 1 bet
draw 3 bets and k's fold - I fold here.
Draw reraises K's 4 bet - I lay it down.
Draw calls K's 3 bets - I don't like it but fold

I call draw raises K's call 2 -I lay it down
I call draw calls - I lose or win nothing there extra
I call draw folds I lose or win nothing extra here .

In stud you must take full advantage of your card/people reading skills with the buried river card. Just limping with fairly strong hands is a pretty impotent way of doing that. Some times people hit their draws and you lose an extra bet or two. But most of the time they call anyway and give you an extra bet. Next time you fill and they flush you can bang the crap out of them if they 3 bet. If theres is a drawing field you still lose 1 but you gain the fields bets when you win. and they arent going to get there all that often. And when they do improve my reraise may convince them that they are still beat and they will fold. Taking advantage of this is worth taking a few risks even with calling players. Against folding players its worth taking a few less risks. In this situation i had 1 of each. I still think the raise was good in this case . It would of been better had It worked and I gained the extra bet(s) instead of losing an extra 1.

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