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Server Time: 8/30/2008 2:25:39 AM PACIFIC |
 KK in BB, Frinky, 13. Aug 2003 12:02 | ||
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| Will you raise from BB if you are facing a raise? How bout if you get a free look at the flop? When do you consider the element of surprise as more important. EP after the flop provides a great opportunity to check-raise the flop/turn. Who are you letting in if you don't raise? Noone who hadn't called already. Mind you, an A on the flop/turn complicates things. I know it depends on your opponents/texture of game...but generally if the raise comes from EP and multiple callers I will flat-call...if it comes from the button or thereabouts and I can force 2 players to put in 2 additional bets I will raise. Thoughts appreciated. | ||
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| Re: KK in BB, Risky Business, 13. Aug 2003 12:22 | ||
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| Answering assuming this is a limit game. I don't know how this is going to sit with the pros, but I would consider raising if there are a lot of players, say 5 or more, as I'm likely to get called by a few, versus one or 2 callers who wouldn't see the pot odds to call my raise and would dump. (The flop is going to knock out a few anyway) Most importantly, the more people in the hand, the more likely you are up against a single Ace in the hole (multiple times) around the table..........making it less likely for Aces to fall on the board. I don't enjoy having my Kings cracked by pocket fours that turn a set. If it's already raised to me in the BB, I'll call it, then lead the betting in the next round, maybe trying a check-raise later on unless an Ace falls. I'm easy to take money from when I have Kings and you have pocket Aces. on 13. Aug 2003 12:02 Frinky wrote: > Will you raise from BB if you are facing a raise? How bout if you get a free look at the flop? When do you consider the element of surprise as more important. EP after the flop provides a great opportunity to check-raise the flop/turn. Who are you letting in if you don't raise? Noone who hadn't called already. Mind you, an A on the flop/turn complicates things. > > I know it depends on your opponents/texture of game...but generally if the raise comes from EP and multiple callers I will flat-call...if it comes from the button or thereabouts and I can force 2 players to put in 2 additional bets I will raise. > > Thoughts appreciated. | ||
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| Re: KK in BB, MozMan, 13. Aug 2003 12:31 | ||
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| I had a similar conversation with a friend recently. He never raises out the BB for any hand. To him, the only reason he would raise is to try to fold off some players, and in the passive low-limt games we play, that just doesn't happen. If they're in for one, they'll call another, or two, etc. My take is a little different. I will raise/reraise more often than not in the situation you described. On the occasions when my kings are golden, I want them to pay me for the times when my kings will be cracked. I know they are not gonna fold-off, and that's ok, I want more of their chips in the pot. If it looks like my kings will be good, then I will charge the fee to see every card. If an ace falls and there is a lot of action, then I'm ready to bail if I need to, but if I have gotten the pot big enough, then I might have the odds to draw for the set on the turn or river. -Moz "Your destiny chooses you." | ||
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| Re: KK in BB, Risky Business, 13. Aug 2003 12:44 | ||
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| I was right with you until you started in with the drawing-to-a-set babble. Aren't your pot odds always going to be better than hitting your set once 3 people see the flop, subsequently, trapping you into the hand if you use that theory. Help me understand how that's not a death trap if you see an Ace and a are raised. Taking on my namesake........You HAVE to lead if an Ace falls. You might even scare off another Ace, as your original raise represented Ace-King in some eyes. on 13. Aug 2003 12:31 MozMan wrote: > I had a similar conversation with a friend recently. He never raises out the BB for > any hand. To him, the only reason he would raise is to try to fold off some players, > and in the passive low-limt games we play, that just doesn't happen. If they're in > for one, they'll call another, or two, etc. > > My take is a little different. I will raise/reraise more often than not in the > situation you described. On the occasions when my kings are golden, I want them to > pay me for the times when my kings will be cracked. I know they are not gonna > fold-off, and that's ok, I want more of their chips in the pot. If it looks like my > kings will be good, then I will charge the fee to see every card. If an ace falls and > there is a lot of action, then I'm ready to bail if I need to, but if I have gotten > the pot big enough, then I might have the odds to draw for the set on the turn or > river. > > -Moz > > "Your destiny chooses you." | ||
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| Re: KK in BB, ezcheese, 13. Aug 2003 12:55 | ||
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| So you are representing AK... what is the person who actually has the ace going to have? You think that in a 10/20 game he's going to play A5? AT? Even AQ if it's 3 bets to him pre-flop?? Maybe in 3/6 they will play Ax but in higher limits it's more unlikely. Now... say the person is scared of your AK because he played A8 or something of that nature... you think someone who cold calls 3 bets with A8 preflop is going to be scared off when he flops top pair?? even with a weak kicker he will bet that until the end. | ||
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| Re: KK in BB, Risky Business, 13. Aug 2003 14:50 | ||
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| First of all, I was responding to the original post with the intent on being the first to raise in a multiplayer pot. But I'll accept that I re-raised, though I probably would have no reason to, the pot is big enough. I will not assume that everyone playing 10/20 is a good poker player. This isn't far fetched.....The guy called the unraised big blind with A-2 suited on the button or close to it, then called the BB raise after seeing 4 other callers come in (now he's getting great pot odds on the nut flush and a straight). The flop comes Ace-10-6...........I lead with K-K in my hand. Does the A-2 suited stay in the hand if I keep leading, or check-raise? If he's as good as you make him out to be (he IS playing 10/20 after all), he lays down his Ace-crap to a raise from an original raiser. | ||
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| Re: KK in BB, MozMan, 13. Aug 2003 13:27 | ||
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| To go at this backwards: yeah, you gotta bet at it if an ace falls on the flop. It's the only way to figure out whats really going on. You need to see what kind of response you will get. Most players who know me know that I will be on a premium hand if I raised or reraised out of the BB, so a raise on the flop tells me I am up against an ace (or some kinda set) with very little doubt. Now, for the odds thing. Looking strictly at the odds of making your set (assuming you are convinced that you must have the third king to win) if I'm not mistaken you need something like 24:1 in the pot to draw the set. I don't know too many games where you're gonna get 24:1 after the flop. discalimer: my understanding and calcuation of odds is shoddy at best. I get by doing a lot of estimation and memorization of things I've read in books; very little actual calculation on the fly. So I will admit that I can be way off here. If I am, then I expect to learn something new from this thread! :) As far as representing AK, in a really passive LL game, it has little bearing... most players aren't really thinking about what you have, and will call down with top pair any time. -Moz "Your destiny chooses you." | ||
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| Re: KK in BB, Guru, 13. Aug 2003 16:53 | ||
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| I think 24 to 1 is about right. | ||
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| Re: KK in BB, shorn, 14. Aug 2003 09:40 | ||
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| 23 to is exact...7.5 to 1 preflop. | ||
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| Re: KK in BB, MozMan, 14. Aug 2003 10:44 | ||
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| Thanx to both for confirming I was on the right track. I appreciate it. -Moz "Your destiny chooses you." | ||
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| Re: KK in BB, Andrew Wells, 14. Aug 2003 16:32 | ||
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| 20:1 is enough with implied odds to try and spike a king on the turn with an A X X flop, if you expect to be called on the turn and river by someone with aces. With an A T 9 flop you probably need the full 23:1 since you may lose to a straight. A flop of A J T is obviously death for pocket kings. | ||
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| Re: KK in BB, chasepoker, 14. Aug 2003 16:34 | ||
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| Surely the Q is a clean out ? on 14. Aug 2003 16:32 Andrew Wells wrote: A flop of A J T is obviously death for pocket kings. Chasepoker | ||
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| Re: KK in BB, Andrew Wells, 14. Aug 2003 20:00 | ||
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| Yes and no. With 20 bets in the pot on the flop it's more likely that one or even two queens are in someone else's hand. If you catch a queen, one of the two missing kings may cause a split pot. All three big cards on the flop suggest that most of the time you will just be beaten on the river if the board pairs after you hit the gut shot. There's also the backdoor flush potential, particularly if someone also made a pair with the board. But that is partially compensated by the chances of you catching a king on the turn and the board pairing on the river. You are also very likely to be puting in several bets on the flop (yes with apparent odds to catch a queen), and that's something to consider when it looks like your primary outs are to a straight. So with an A J T board holding KK capped before the flop with four opponents I don't like even 20:1 pot odds. Maybe if I am in last position and it is checked to me on the flop I may bet because I can call a checkraise, or (not likely but possibly) get a free card. Someone with two pairs may not want to continue to be aggressive on the turn after a bet from last position. But here the KK is out of the big blind, a significant positional disadvantage even in a jacked up pot. Generally when I play for a gut shot it is when I think it will only cost me one small bet on the flop getting 9:1 or better when I am likely to also get paid off. Meaning a smaller straight draw. The combination of A) Possibly having to invest three bets on the flop, B) Maybe a 25% chance on average of only winning half the pot, and C) Perhaps a 50% chance of at least one less queen in the deck - lets me fold this one often. I'm sure there are many good players that will get to the river with this large a pot, but I'm seriously discounting the outs in such a situation. | ||
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| Re: KK in BB, MozMan, 13. Aug 2003 13:35 | ||
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| BTW- babbling is one of the things I do best! ;) -Moz "Your destiny chooses you." | ||
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| Re: KK in BB, ezcheese, 13. Aug 2003 13:44 | ||
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| HAHA i was following you but the entire time wondering where the actual reply was... don't worry, i saw it ;) | ||
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| Re: KK in BB, Schuster, 13. Aug 2003 12:45 | ||
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| If I think I can thin people out who have called one bet, I will make it 3. You have a strong hand in a shorthanded pot and a lot of dead money running around. Generally, against people who will pay the 3 bets regardless, I will flat call, unless they are very willing to release the flop without something strong (not a typical low limit player trait). Lee | ||
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| Re: KK in BB, stdioh, 13. Aug 2003 15:41 | ||
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| I always 3-bet with KK out of the BB. You want to fold off some of the players who limped, usually, as well as get in more money for value. You're a big favourite over everybody who doesn't have AA, but you're scared of anybody with an A still. If your 3-bet can fold out a limper holding A9 then it is really worthwhile. | ||
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| Re: KK in BB, MozMan, 13. Aug 2003 15:43 | ||
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| As usual, solid, simple logic and well put, stdioh. -Moz "Your destiny chooses you." | ||
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| Re: KK in BB, stdioh, 13. Aug 2003 15:52 | ||
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| Thanks Moz. | ||
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| Re: KK in BB, guinnessman, 14. Aug 2003 10:35 | ||
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| I will almost always 3 bet to see if the original raiser will make it 4 or call. If he makes it 4, I usually put him on AA or possibly QQ but not many people will make it 4 with AK, AQ, or JJ. The extra raise here could save you some $$ later in the hand. Guinessman | ||
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| Re: KK in BB, DJpoker, 14. Aug 2003 20:54 | ||
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| Some great analysis by you guys. My two cents says that I raise or reraise with pocket KK every time and show no remorse. I will say that if it has already been 3 bet to me in the BB, I will simply call the 3 bet figuring the original raiser will cap it and I have come in under the radar. There are only 4 cards to be afraid of and we all know the odds of AA vs KK is rare. I would say that 99% of the time you are leading with KK so value bet your butt off. (stdioh can give us more accurate odds on KK leading % LOL) KK is by far my favorite hand as it has won me some huge pots. I especially like it in a kill pot where fewer people are inclined to call. Good luck and may you be cursed with KK often. DJpoker | ||
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| Re: KK in BB, Andrew Wells, 14. Aug 2003 20:59 | ||
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| I know many players who will cap it with AKs or even AQs. At least if it's capped by a rational player you don't have to come out betting with KK if an ace flops, just to try and see where you are. I don't even remember the last time I didn't play KK from any position in a limit game as fast as possible before the flop. | ||
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