United Poker Forum  

Server Time: 9/4/2008 9:51:22 PM PACIFIC  
Value of low suited connectors?, Dr_Monkey, 13. Aug 2003 04:10
    View ( Message | Thread )       Return to Thread List
When are low suited connectors worth playing? In a ring game and SnG.

I am having a hard time seeing the value of playing a low suited connector, especially in tournaments.

When there are more than 5 people at the table in a SnG, and you are playing 67s from LP, what are you hoping to see on the flop? Any two of the same suit as yours can give someone a better flush than you. 89s beats you.

Are the odds that someone is holding your suited cards worse when you are in EP?

I normally throw away low suited connectors because
1) I don't think they are worth anything, and;
2) I don't know how to play them.

I have seen people play these cards from all positions and they just seem vulnerable to a higher flush.
        Return to Thread List
 
 
Re: Value of low suited connectors?, 4 POKER, 13. Aug 2003 04:47
    View ( Message | Thread )       Return to Thread List
on 13. Aug 2003 04:10 Dr_Monkey wrote:
> When are low suited connectors worth playing? In a ring game and SnG.
>
> I am having a hard time seeing the value of playing a low suited connector,
> especially in tournaments.
>
> When there are more than 5 people at the table in a SnG, and you are playing
> 67s from LP, what are you hoping to see on the flop? Any two of the same suit
> as yours can give someone a better flush than you. 89s beats you.
>
> Are the odds that someone is holding your suited cards worse when you are in
> EP?
>
> I normally throw away low suited connectors because
> 1) I don't think they are worth anything, and;
> 2) I don't know how to play them.

Honestly Dr Monkey........if you don't know how to play them, then you shouldn't be.

However.....they are playable and can be profitable and easier to play if you play them in the right spot. I don't really play S-n-G's so I'll just address this to ring game play.

Small to medium suited connectors want volume on the hand, so you want to be in a later position so you can see just how many opponents there will be in here to justify your call with these hands. You also don't want to put in extra bets with these hands because they often have to be mucked right on the flop. So chose to play them in a late postion so you can get a much better idication on just how much the hand is going to cost you.

When you hold this type of hand, you're basically looking to flop a straight or an open end straight draw. The more people in the pot will determine how strong your hand really needs to hit on the flop, and if it will be correct for you to continue with your draw. If you happen to flop a flush, and one opponent bets and many opponents then fold to you, you can play the hand more easily as noone may have flopped a flush with you, but you still need to worry if the turn card brings the same flush card as was on the flop because now your low flush would be pretty crappy to say the least.

If you hold 6-5 and the flop comes up Q-6-5........then depending on how many are in on the flop.....who is betting........how many are calling.......is anyone raising, and so on, will determine how strong your two pair really are, and if you are able to use your position as to try and knock out some or most of the field to try and get the hand down to just one, maybe two opponents, and then you can take it from there and make another good decision now when the turn card comes out.

All in all though......when I play these hands, I'm looking to flop a straight more than I am a flush because a nut straight will win for sure if it holds up but your flush may not be good enough even if you flop it and no other suits come up.

The more players that hang around on the flop, the stronger your own hand has to be in hoping that it can hold up, and justifying you to still continue with your straight draw and/or two pair for example.

But until you're really comfortable with playing these hands......I would suggest that you throw more of them away, regardless of your position. There's some good books out there that go over the "play" of small suited connectors, and that may help you to understand how and when to play them better for your style of play as well. For small suited connectors, I wouldn't play anything lower than 5-4 suited, even on the button.

4 POKER



> I have seen people play these cards from all positions and they just seem
> vulnerable to a higher flush.
        Return to Thread List
 
 
Re: Value of low suited connectors?, Dr_Monkey, 13. Aug 2003 05:44
    View ( Message | Thread )       Return to Thread List
on 13. Aug 2003 04:47 4 POKER wrote:
> on 13. Aug 2003 04:10 Dr_Monkey wrote:
> All in all though......when I play these hands, I'm looking to flop a straight more
> than I am a flush because a nut straight will win for sure if it holds up but your
> flush may not be good enough even if you flop it and no other suits come up.

Thanks for the comments. If you are looking to flop a str8, and a flush may not be good enough, why do they have to be suited?

        Return to Thread List
 
 
Re: Value of low suited connectors?, Snorbolus, 13. Aug 2003 08:07
    View ( Message | Thread )       Return to Thread List
It helps to be suited because sometimes you will make your small flush AND have some reason to believe that it is good, based on your reads of the other players in the hand. Those times are where the vlaue of suitedness comes from.

If you make the nuts with a str8 you are in clover. If you make a flush you must rely on your poker skills to decide if it is good or not. Remember that top pair is never the nuts either, nevertheless it is a very profitable holding in hold'em.

Snorbolus

on 13. Aug 2003 05:44 Dr_Monkey wrote:
> on 13. Aug 2003 04:47 4 POKER wrote:
> > on 13. Aug 2003 04:10 Dr_Monkey wrote:
> > All in all though......when I play these hands, I'm looking to flop a straight more
> > than I am a flush ...........
> Thanks for the comments. If you are looking to flop a str8, and a flush may not be good
> enough, why do they have to be suited?
>
>
        Return to Thread List
 
 
Re: Value of low suited connectors?, Don Quixote, 13. Aug 2003 09:42
    View ( Message | Thread )       Return to Thread List
4 POKER, first let me thank you for the great help and advice you have posted on this forum. One thing that pros sometimes forget on these forums is that there is an audience of newbies that dont understand the why of some posts which are immediately understood by more experienced readers.

Case in point, you recommend not playing connectors below 54. The reason, I think, (please correct me if I am wrong) is because A2 can make only one straight, 23 can make two straights, 34 makes three straights, and 54 will make four straights. Connectors can make only four straights unless they are in the "bicycle" or "broadway" area. I realize this is elementary to experienced players but may not be to newbies.

I thought it was about time for me to pay my dues here since you guys have been such great help to me. Sometimes, in answering questions on one strategy, you turn a light on for me on other things.

Thanks again, 4P, and I hope you dont mind my jumping in here with such basic stuff :=-)

Don Quixote



on 13. Aug 2003 04:47 4 POKER wrote:
> on 13. Aug 2003 04:10 Dr_Monkey wrote:
> > When are low suited connectors worth playing? In a ring game and SnG.
> >
> > I am having a hard time seeing the value of playing a low suited connector,
> > especially in tournaments.
> >
> > When there are more than 5 people at the table in a SnG, and you are playing
> > 67s from LP, what are you hoping to see on the flop? Any two of the same suit
> > as yours can give someone a better flush than you. 89s beats you.
> >
> > Are the odds that someone is holding your suited cards worse when you are in
> > EP?
> >
> > I normally throw away low suited connectors because
> > 1) I don't think they are worth anything, and;
> > 2) I don't know how to play them.
>
> Honestly Dr Monkey........if you don't know how to play them, then you shouldn't
> be.
>
> However.....they are playable and can be profitable and easier to play if you play
> them in the right spot. I don't really play S-n-G's so I'll just address this to ring
> game play.
>
> Small to medium suited connectors want volume on the hand, so you want to be in a
> later position so you can see just how many opponents there will be in here to
> justify your call with these hands. You also don't want to put in extra bets with
> these hands because they often have to be mucked right on the flop. So chose to play
> them in a late postion so you can get a much better idication on just how much the
> hand is going to cost you.
>
> When you hold this type of hand, you're basically looking to flop a straight or an
> open end straight draw. The more people in the pot will determine how strong your
> hand really needs to hit on the flop, and if it will be correct for you to continue
> with your draw. If you happen to flop a flush, and one opponent bets and many
> opponents then fold to you, you can play the hand more easily as noone may have
> flopped a flush with you, but you still need to worry if the turn card brings the
> same flush card as was on the flop because now your low flush would be pretty crappy
> to say the least.
>
> If you hold 6-5 and the flop comes up Q-6-5........then depending on how many are in
> on the flop.....who is betting........how many are calling.......is anyone raising,
> and so on, will determine how strong your two pair really are, and if you are able to
> use your position as to try and knock out some or most of the field to try and get
> the hand down to just one, maybe two opponents, and then you can take it from there
> and make another good decision now when the turn card comes out.
>
> All in all though......when I play these hands, I'm looking to flop a straight more
> than I am a flush because a nut straight will win for sure if it holds up but your
> flush may not be good enough even if you flop it and no other suits come up.
>
> The more players that hang around on the flop, the stronger your own hand has to be
> in hoping that it can hold up, and justifying you to still continue with your
> straight draw and/or two pair for example.
>
> But until you're really comfortable with playing these hands......I would suggest
> that you throw more of them away, regardless of your position. There's some good
> books out there that go over the "play" of small suited connectors, and that may help
> you to understand how and when to play them better for your style of play as well.
> For small suited connectors, I wouldn't play anything lower than 5-4 suited, even on
> the button.
>
> 4 POKER
>
>
>
> > I have seen people play these cards from all positions and they just seem
> > vulnerable to a higher flush.
        Return to Thread List
 
 
Re: Value of low suited connectors?, 4 POKER, 14. Aug 2003 03:35
    View ( Message | Thread )       Return to Thread List
on 13. Aug 2003 09:42 Don Quixote wrote:
> 4 POKER, first let me thank you for the great help and advice you have posted on this
> forum. One thing that pros sometimes forget on these forums is that there is an audience
> of newbies that dont understand the why of some posts which are immediately understood by
> more experienced readers.
>
> Case in point, you recommend not playing connectors below 54. The reason, I think,
> (please correct me if I am wrong) is because A2 can make only one straight, 23 can make
> two straights, 34 makes three straights, and 54 will make four straights. Connectors can
> make only four straights unless they are in the "bicycle" or "broadway" area. I realize
> this is elementary to experienced players but may not be to newbies.
>
> I thought it was about time for me to pay my dues here since you guys have been such
> great help to me. Sometimes, in answering questions on one strategy, you turn a light on
> for me on other things.
>
> Thanks again, 4P, and I hope you dont mind my jumping in here with such basic stuff
> :=-)
>
> Don Quixote


Don,

I think your reasoning is correct. Although Ace-"baby" cards will have stealing power if you're on the button and everyone has folded.

And........"your welcome"! This forum is all about helping others and your posts are much appreciated as well......."Thank you".



4 POKER


>
>
>
> on 13. Aug 2003 04:47 4 POKER wrote:
> > on 13. Aug 2003 04:10 Dr_Monkey wrote:
> > > When are low suited connectors worth playing? In a ring game and SnG.
> > >
> > > I am having a hard time seeing the value of playing a low suited connector,
> > > especially in tournaments.
> > >
> > > When there are more than 5 people at the table in a SnG, and you are playing
> > > 67s from LP, what are you hoping to see on the flop? Any two of the same suit
> > > as yours can give someone a better flush than you. 89s beats you.
> > >
> > > Are the odds that someone is holding your suited cards worse when you are in
> > > EP?
> > >
> > > I normally throw away low suited connectors because
> > > 1) I don't think they are worth anything, and;
> > > 2) I don't know how to play them.
> >
> > Honestly Dr Monkey........if you don't know how to play them, then you shouldn't
> > be.
> >
> > However.....they are playable and can be profitable and easier to play if you play
> > them in the right spot. I don't really play S-n-G's so I'll just address this to ring
>
> > game play.
> >
> > Small to medium suited connectors want volume on the hand, so you want to be in a
> > later position so you can see just how many opponents there will be in here to
> > justify your call with these hands. You also don't want to put in extra bets with
> > these hands because they often have to be mucked right on the flop. So chose to play
> > them in a late postion so you can get a much better idication on just how much the
> > hand is going to cost you.
> >
> > When you hold this type of hand, you're basically looking to flop a straight or an
> > open end straight draw. The more people in the pot will determine how strong your
> > hand really needs to hit on the flop, and if it will be correct for you to continue
> > with your draw. If you happen to flop a flush, and one opponent bets and many
> > opponents then fold to you, you can play the hand more easily as noone may have
> > flopped a flush with you, but you still need to worry if the turn card brings the
> > same flush card as was on the flop because now your low flush would be pretty crappy
> > to say the least.
> >
> > If you hold 6-5 and the flop comes up Q-6-5........then depending on how many are in
> > on the flop.....who is betting........how many are calling.......is anyone raising,
> > and so on, will determine how strong your two pair really are, and if you are able to
>
> > use your position as to try and knock out some or most of the field to try and get
> > the hand down to just one, maybe two opponents, and then you can take it from there
> > and make another good decision now when the turn card comes out.
> >
> > All in all though......when I play these hands, I'm looking to flop a straight more
> > than I am a flush because a nut straight will win for sure if it holds up but your
> > flush may not be good enough even if you flop it and no other suits come up.
> >
> > The more players that hang around on the flop, the stronger your own hand has to be
> > in hoping that it can hold up, and justifying you to still continue with your
> > straight draw and/or two pair for example.
> >
> > But until you're really comfortable with playing these hands......I would suggest
> > that you throw more of them away, regardless of your position. There's some good
> > books out there that go over the "play" of small suited connectors, and that may help
>
> > you to understand how and when to play them better for your style of play as well.
> > For small suited connectors, I wouldn't play anything lower than 5-4 suited, even on
> > the button.
> >
> > 4 POKER
> >
> >
> >
> > > I have seen people play these cards from all positions and they just seem
> > > vulnerable to a higher flush.
        Return to Thread List
 
 
Re: Value of low suited connectors?, Roy Cooke, 13. Aug 2003 07:14
    View ( Message | Thread )       Return to Thread List
Hi Dr. Monkey

I do not value suited connectors as much as most poker authors or conventional wisdom dictates. When I played neighborhood cardrooms in the State of Washington (25 years ago), I change two strategies from Sklansky's yellow hold'em book. I did not play suited connectors as loosely as he stated as too many players were playing anything suited and my flush draw was often dead (This is often the reason pots are high volume) and I did not bet AK high on the flop (As David states to do), as they called anyway...It had no value and I was just setting myself up to get checkraised.

I will play them....But the situation has to be rich in value....I play that texture of hand as an aggressive hand to run over people who play too predictable or tight...or against very bad players!

Roy Cooke

on 13. Aug 2003 04:10 Dr_Monkey wrote:
> When are low suited connectors worth playing? In a ring game and SnG.
>
> I am having a hard time seeing the value of playing a low suited connector,
> especially in tournaments.
>
> When there are more than 5 people at the table in a SnG, and you are playing
> 67s from LP, what are you hoping to see on the flop? Any two of the same suit
> as yours can give someone a better flush than you. 89s beats you.
>
> Are the odds that someone is holding your suited cards worse when you are in
> EP?
>
> I normally throw away low suited connectors because
> 1) I don't think they are worth anything, and;
> 2) I don't know how to play them.
>
> I have seen people play these cards from all positions and they just seem
> vulnerable to a higher flush.
        Return to Thread List
 
 
Re: Value of low suited connectors?, Don Quixote, 13. Aug 2003 09:56
    View ( Message | Thread )       Return to Thread List
Roy, et al, thanks for the great info in this thread. I have found that some of my largest pots come from playing connectors. If they are suited, that is an extra bonus; but I am much more careful in playing the middle and lower suited connectors for the exact reasons you mention. Your insight as to others probably drawing to the flush was most helpful. I realized that possibility/probability and will have to keep it more in mind.

I play only the .50/1. ring games and have found that playing connectors correctly in Party's loose, passive games has increased my BB win rate

Thanks, Roy, et al, for sharing your knowledge.

Don Quixote


on 13. Aug 2003 07:14 Roy Cooke wrote:
> Hi Dr. Monkey
>
> I do not value suited connectors as much as most poker authors or conventional
> wisdom dictates. When I played neighborhood cardrooms in the State of Washington (25
> years ago), I change two strategies from Sklansky's yellow hold'em book. I did not
> play suited connectors as loosely as he stated as too many players were playing
> anything suited and my flush draw was often dead (This is often the reason pots are
> high volume) and I did not bet AK high on the flop (As David states to do), as they
> called anyway...It had no value and I was just setting myself up to get
> checkraised.
>
> I will play them....But the situation has to be rich in value....I play that texture
> of hand as an aggressive hand to run over people who play too predictable or
> tight...or against very bad players!
>
> Roy Cooke
>
> on 13. Aug 2003 04:10 Dr_Monkey wrote:
> > When are low suited connectors worth playing? In a ring game and SnG.
> >
> > I am having a hard time seeing the value of playing a low suited connector,
> > especially in tournaments.
> >
> > When there are more than 5 people at the table in a SnG, and you are playing
> > 67s from LP, what are you hoping to see on the flop? Any two of the same suit
> > as yours can give someone a better flush than you. 89s beats you.
> >
> > Are the odds that someone is holding your suited cards worse when you are in
> > EP?
> >
> > I normally throw away low suited connectors because
> > 1) I don't think they are worth anything, and;
> > 2) I don't know how to play them.
> >
> > I have seen people play these cards from all positions and they just seem
> > vulnerable to a higher flush.
        Return to Thread List
 
 
Re: Value of low suited connectors?, Easy E, 13. Aug 2003 08:56
    View ( Message | Thread )       Return to Thread List
At lower limits, the connectors can be good hands to play, especially if the table is passive pre- and post- flop.

And, your flush is good a lot more times than it should be. You'll get paid off by one-card flush draws, sometimes through the river. Of course, there's an easy dump if the fourth flush card falls.

Two pair can also be used to punish the top pair hanger-ons, as well as the people drawing to their straights. You only have to be careful about related cards falling on later streets. Example- Q75, then an overcard or a J-9 falls, possibly making the top pair a kicker second pair.

At least that has been MY experience.
        Return to Thread List
 
 
Re: Value of low suited connectors?, Don Quixote, 13. Aug 2003 09:25
    View ( Message | Thread )       Return to Thread List
Easy, could you possibly draw me a picture concerning paragraph 3 "Two pair can also......." I am a little dense and dont quite understand what you are saying. It sounds important, and I want to be sure I get it.

Thanks.

Don Quixote


on 13. Aug 2003 08:56 Easy E wrote:
> At lower limits, the connectors can be good hands to play, especially if the table is
> passive pre- and post- flop.
>
> And, your flush is good a lot more times than it should be. You'll get paid off by
> one-card flush draws, sometimes through the river. Of course, there's an easy dump
> if the fourth flush card falls.
>
> Two pair can also be used to punish the top pair hanger-ons, as well

as the people
> drawing to their straights. You only have to be careful about related cards falling
> on later streets. Example- Q75, then an overcard or a J-9 falls, possibly making the
> top pair a kicker second pair.
>
> At least that has been MY experience.
        Return to Thread List
 
 
Re: Value of low suited connectors?, Schuster, 13. Aug 2003 12:33
    View ( Message | Thread )       Return to Thread List
I'm not Easy, but I'll do my best to restate her words. Correct me if I'm wrong at all Easy!

"Two pair can also be used to punish the top pair hanger-ons, as well as the people drawing to their straights. You only have to be careful about related cards falling on later streets. Example- Q75, then an overcard or a J-9 falls, possibly making the top pair a kicker second pair."

I believe she is refering to the people who will pay you off with top pair regardless of how much you tell them they are beaten. A lot of people will call a turn raise with nothing but top pair without even blinking, as long as the board isn't too scary. These are the people you want to get extra bets out of for their refusal to let it go. You can get an extra turn bet and an extra river bet over the bets you would get out of a solid player. Also since you generally only play suited connectors in late position (the exception being the blinds), you will generally have position on these top pair bettors, which will make it easier to get that extra bet.

The second part of Easy's statement concerns scary stuff that might fall. If the turn card is an ace, king, jack, 10, or 9, someone might just be holding a hand like AQ, KQ, QJ, Q10, or Q9. Note that a 9 would also fill an open end straight for a 6-8 holding. If you encounter a lot of resistance to your bottom 2 pair, be *very* careful. If someone else has 2 pair, you are drawing to 4 outs at best, and 2 outs at worst if they share one of the pairs with you. Get value out of these hands when you can, but don't be afraid to dump them when you know you are beat.

Lee
        Return to Thread List
 
 
I tried to "draw you a picture", Easy E, 14. Aug 2003 05:54
    View ( Message | Thread )       Return to Thread List
but the picture ended up all messed up.

Schuster made a perfect translation, so I won't repeat it.
        Return to Thread List
 
 
Re: Value of low suited connectors?, MozMan, 13. Aug 2003 10:27
    View ( Message | Thread )       Return to Thread List
Dr-

Personally, I will play these holding occasionally, and only in position. A hand like this really needs a lot of players in the pot to be profitable, and you have to be ready to dump it in a heartbeat if it isn't working.

I think the idea that suited is better is true, but way overvalued. When I play them I almost DON'T was to see my flush-draw come unless I'm drawing the str8-flush... and we all know how often THAT happens. Basically, I really want to be playing the nut str8 more than anything else.

As a basis for playing this hand, look at it this way:

1- play it only in LP, and look for at least five in the pot (the more the better).
2- if you flop the str8, bet the hell out of it.
3- if you flop the OE draw, look to check/call most of the time, provided most/all stay in the pot ahead of you. You can sometimes bet it if the board is right and it's checked to you and you are pretty sure you will pick up the pot right there.
4- if you flop the flush or flush draw, be very careful. You might be up against a bigger flush. If you made the flush and it's checked to you, bet at it while the bets are small, if you get check-raised then bail; it's not worth it.
5- if you flop two pair, a lot depends on the board and the players. If everyone is being weak on you, you might be golden. If it looks like someone else might be drawing, you need the odds to draw at the boat (I think 8:1, but I might be off).

-Moz

"Your destiny chooses you."
        Return to Thread List
 
 
Re: Value of low suited connectors?, woodstied, 16. Aug 2003 17:50
    View ( Message | Thread )       Return to Thread List
one night this week I won a tourney with two straight flushes back to back followed by four of a kind, now those are some odds, the straight flushes were in diamonds
        Return to Thread List
 
 
Re: Value of low suited connectors?, shorn, 13. Aug 2003 11:00
    View ( Message | Thread )       Return to Thread List
Position is the key, all the way up to T9s. Don't get caught up playing lower than that from MP up...it will cost too much. LP is the only place to really play 87s and below.

Also, be careful if you flop something like middle pair with 3 to the str8. It can be very tempting to call abet with a holding like this and if the pot is large enough, then perhaps it is OK. But, most of the time if you don't flop two pair or an outside str8 draw (to the nuts), you should fold in a typical LL game. Just too many ways you could be beaten.

Getting away from these hands on the flop is where you will end up making most of your money on them (thereby saving the profit you win when you do hit your str8 which doesn't happen too often).
        Return to Thread List
 
 
Re: Value of low suited connectors?, stdioh, 13. Aug 2003 16:08
    View ( Message | Thread )       Return to Thread List
It is very rare to have somebody make a better flush if there is only a 3-flush on board. Small suited connectors are nice in a ring game because if you have enough people playing you can afford to be raised after you come in with them, since the raise is only 1 small bet. If you hit them hard then they are almost certain to win the hand for you. They are cards that win big pots seldom ... as long as the pots are big enough they don't have to be frequent. Don't forget that there are other ways to win with them too...all the ways that "any two cards can win" apply. I've flopped 2 pair with suited connectors plenty of times and when a board comes 67A and you're holding 67 suited you've got nothing to complain about there either.

The long story short is that they are worth playing, but only against a large field (or heads up if you know how to play them well).

As for playing them in a tournament, they are great there too if you can get in cheap with them. If you're playing opponents who make minimum bets or are very passive then you can hit your hand cheaply. Since NL is a game of implied odds, once you make a monster hand like this it can get you a lot of chips very fast.
        Return to Thread List
 
 
       POKER FORUM HOME   |   POKER FORUM   |   LINK TO US   |   ARCHIVE   |   ONLINE POKER Copyright 2002, United Poker Forum  
Getting Started |  UPF Tournaments |  Poker News, Views, Rules |  Poker Strategy & Psychology |  Money and Bankroll
Poker Bonuses & Promotions |  World Series of Poker (WSOP) |  Play Online Poker |  Poker Odds & Statistics |  Tournament Poker |  Poker Books, Videos & Learning Tools
Looking for a Poker Game |  Poker Bad Beats |  Not Quite Poker |  Quizzes and Polls |  Forum Suggestions & Bugs

Interesting Links: Online Poker | Free Poker Games | United Poker Network