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Server Time: 12/1/2008 10:33:25 PM PACIFIC |
 Help w/ playing overcards please!, Machinegun68, 12. Aug 2003 19:27 | ||
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| Hello. I have detected a huge leak in my game- the play of overcards. How should a hand like AK be played? Of course I raise and re-raise preflop with this hand. However, how should I proceed after a flop like 7-5-2 rainbow? I will usually check and call, which I know is weak generally. If I am in early position, should I bet two overcards to attempt to reduce the field? If I'm in late position I will call on the flop with AK to a rags board like the one above. What are the odds of this hand improving or even holding up without improvement? Say I just call one bet with AK on the above flop. The turn comes another blank. Should I now abandon the hand if I can't see the river for free? Of course I will abandon if bet into after another blank comes or the board pairs. I generally play very tight but I can't seem to get away on rag flops with hands like AKs, AK, and KQs. Any help on the proper play of overcards? I suspect that I play them far too loose, although I generally play in a game that ranges from moderate to maniacal. I am the only tight-aggressive player there. Thanks for any help! | ||
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| Re: Help w/ playing overcards please!, Radman, 12. Aug 2003 21:02 | ||
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| I'm thinking I play too loose here also as it seems like I get killed on these "great hands". I'm far from one of the experts around here, but I'd say a BET on the rag flop is much better than the check and call. The chance of stealing (even if slight) and finding out where you are makes it correct IMO. It's the turn and river bets here I really need to back off of. maybe i'm too wild but I'd rarely call a bet as you describe. bet, check and fold, and an occasional raise would be my mode here. | ||
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| Re: Help w/ playing overcards please!, SendMoney, 12. Aug 2003 21:32 | ||
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| I've adopted a new strategy for playing hands like AK, AQ, AJ, KQ, KJ and the like - up front I like to just call, about the only time I raise with them is when I'm in late position and it's folded to me, it looks like a steal raise. Additionally I hardly ever re-raise with AK before the flop, I usually just smooth call. With AK I don't really want to thin the field, I want K3s and A10o to see the flop and call me all the way to the river when an A or a K flops. Of course occasionally this will allow someone to flop a monster hand that will beat you cheaply like two pair or a small pocket pair set, but I believe it is more than made up for by the passive money you will get most of the time from players with kicker problems. You have to also consider that sometimes you will be the one flopping a monster. Suppose you raise before the flop with AK and the flop comes A K 2 rainbow, if you bet the flop everyone might fold, if you check and bet the turn most people will know better. Now suppose you didn't raise before the flop, now all those weak aces and weak kings will pay you off big time. Another advantage of simply calling with hands like AK and KQ before the flop is if the flop don't bring a pair, a four flush, or a gutshot straight draw with two overcards (example 2 9 J when holding KQ) why not just fold? If you do have to chase overcards you should be more willing to do so with KQ or QJ than with AK. The problem with AK is that most players play Ace + Anything. Now if you're heads up and hold AKo and the other player holds A6s and the flop comes 2 6 7 then you only have 3 outs to your King, while if you had QJ or KQ you'd have 6 clean outs. Not as many players play King + Anything or Q + Anything as do with the Aces. As far as I'm concerned the only hands you should almost always raise with are AA KK and QQ, if you don't raise them before the flop you're missing a bet as far as I'm concerned. You can make a case for smooth calling with many of the other hands including JJ 1010 AQs AJs and the like, unless you're playing a very tight game where there is a lot of "bet and take it" type action. I just think you'll get a lot of passive money after the flop when you flop monsters, money you might not get if you show aggression initially. That and you don't feel as committed to the pot when you hold say AK and the flop comes something like 9 9 10 - obviously that's not your flop, why not just fold and save your money for the next time when the flop comes K 9 2? Ultimately play however makes you happy, but I want either top pair, a four flush, an open-ended straight draw or a gutshot with two overcards to continue most of the time. | ||
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| Re: Help w/ playing overcards please!, mj, 12. Aug 2003 23:41 | ||
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| Overcards are tough to play with in most situations, especially on a loose / maniac table where you can't just muscle people out. If you're in early position with many loose callers, there's no value in betting if someone who paired is going to call you down. If you do bet out, your only hope is they put you on top pocket pair and fold to you. Then you have to ask yourself how often do people actually fold to you when you do hold bullets? If you're thinking of it as a semi-bluff, you've got 6 outs, which is 2 more than a gutty- assuming your top pair makes the nuts. It's much more a pure bluff than anything else. If you were able to isolate one or maybe two players on the flop, that's a different story. That pretty much calls out for a bet or a check-raise even if you're holding nothing. At that point, it's not what you hold but what your opponents aren't holding. If he's holding AK too and bets out on the button and you pop him, he'll likely fold. If he's indeed got something strong like QQ and raises back, you've got an easy fold. Funny enough, a call may be the most dreaded action. You know he's got at least something and are in a tough spot to wonder if he can still be bluffed out of the pot. Check shows critical weakness if he was already weak, while betting vs a determined caller will cost you.. that's poker. In any case, I think it's one of those raise or fold situations unless you're heads up with a pure maniac. - MJ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: Party Poker Playing Guide and Sign Up Bonus Codes http://teamfu.freeshell.org/ | ||
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| Re: Help w/ playing overcards please!, Schuster, 13. Aug 2003 00:25 | ||
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| In your example, the flop of 7-5-2 rainbow, it is rather coordinated. Any 9, 8, 4, or 3 could make a straight. Any 7, 5, or 2 is also probably bad news against huge calling stations. The board has to be really uncoordinated or the pot has to be really big for me to play overcards against a large field. Against a small field however (only 1 or 2 opponents) if I raised before the flop I will almost always bet the flop. You have a much better chance of folding them off, and you might even have the best hand if they are respectable players against a rag flop. Lee | ||
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| Re: Help w/ playing overcards please!, Schuster, 13. Aug 2003 00:26 | ||
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| Oops, I goofed a bit. Note that hitting your ace puts a wheel on board for anyone with 3-4. The only really clean out you have here is a king. Fold and wait for a better spot. | ||
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