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Server Time: 12/1/2008 9:51:32 PM PACIFIC |
 Just a quick comment on Chris Moneymaker, foraces, 12. Aug 2003 15:19 | ||
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| I was just reading some old posts criticizing Moneymakers play in the WSOP. Now I haven't seen him play anymore than what they show on ESPN, and I really have no idea how "good" of a player he is as opposed to how "lucky" he got, but if the guy got in for $40 on Pokerstars, He had to have played a shatload of NLH because that $40 was the buy-in to a multi-tier tournement. I highly doubt that he had some absolutly amazing streak of luck like some people make it seem. Chris had to have played some good solid tournement poker along the way: making plays at pots, sniffing out bluffs, making some big laydowns etc. Anyway thats just my opinion. | ||
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| Re: Just a quick comment on Chris Moneymaker, BUSSY, 12. Aug 2003 15:27 | ||
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| You absolutely have to get lucky to win a tournament. Ask any world class player and they will agree. | ||
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| Re: Just a quick comment on Chris Moneymaker, MozMan, 12. Aug 2003 15:42 | ||
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| I think it goes both ways. There is some luck involved in surviving any NLHE tourney... but there is also a reason the same faces are always in the money at the WSOP, year after year: because of their skill. While Moneymaker certainly had some luck on his side during his play, he also made the best of it. I give him credit for the win. You don't even get to the final table in that event without deserving it. -Moz "Your destiny chooses you." | ||
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| Re: Just a quick comment on Chris Moneymaker, stdioh, 12. Aug 2003 16:29 | ||
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| For sure, Chris Moneymaker is no slouch. Put him at a table with 9 of the world's finest and he's probably a big underdog, but put him at a table with 9 average WSOP entrants and he's probably a good bet to put your money on. Was he the most skilled player at the WSOP this year? Very doubtful. Was he skilled enough to capitalize on luck? Absolutely. Can anybody win the WSOP without some measure of good fortune? Nope. Moneymaker wasn't in there making giant mistakes. It isn't like he called all in with 23 and spiked a wheel or something - then people could really say, "What was that idiot doing" ... did he play some things as we might not expect him to? Yes, but that's called good poker. I think people are picking at him because he is not a big name and good poker players feel better when refuse to admit that there are amateurs out there who are just as good if not better than they are. Am I a world class player? Nope. But I'll bet you that I could have a mildly +EV in the WSOP. I could enter it and have a chance of winning (hopefully better than 1/52! :) ) ... yeah ... Moneymaker won it and he got what he deserved. | ||
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| Re: Just a quick comment on Chris Moneymaker, Jav, 12. Aug 2003 17:58 | ||
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| Amen. You have to be good AND lucky to win a tournament like that. | ||
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| Re: Just a quick comment on Chris Moneymaker, foraces, 12. Aug 2003 20:06 | ||
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| currently watching tonights episode..20 min in, and I must say, he has the balls to play the non nut (alright-not even TOP pair) hands. Way bigger balls than I have, but then again when have I been the chip leader at the final table of the WSOP? | ||
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| Re: Just a quick comment on Chris Moneymaker, Roy Cooke, 13. Aug 2003 07:35 | ||
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| I am disappointed in the way Chris is put down by some people...Is he a pro player...No...Can he play at the same level as the best NL tournament players,,,..NO...(I do understand that he won)......Did he get lucky to win the tourney?....Hell yes! Does he have some good poker knowledge......YES......Did he show great courage, fortitude and class......DAMN RIGHT HE DID and he should get HUGE credit for that....It is a tough situation to handle even for VERY experienced players......How many criticizing him could handle the pressure of the situation? Give this guy some credit! He has earned it! Roy Cooke on 12. Aug 2003 15:19 foraces wrote: > I was just reading some old posts criticizing Moneymakers play in the WSOP. Now > I haven't seen him play anymore than what they show on ESPN, and I really have > no idea how "good" of a player he is as opposed to how "lucky" he got, but if > the guy got in for $40 on Pokerstars, He had to have played a shatload of NLH > because that $40 was the buy-in to a multi-tier tournement. I highly doubt that > he had some absolutly amazing streak of luck like some people make it seem. > Chris had to have played some good solid tournement poker along the way: making > plays at pots, sniffing out bluffs, making some big laydowns etc. Anyway thats > just my opinion. | ||
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| Re: Just a quick comment on Chris Moneymaker, shorn, 13. Aug 2003 07:45 | ||
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| Did you have a piece of this guy Roy? | ||
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| Re: Just a quick comment on Chris Moneymaker, Roy Cooke, 13. Aug 2003 07:46 | ||
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| I wish I did :-)! Roy Cooke on 13. Aug 2003 07:45 shorn wrote: > Did you have a piece of this guy Roy? | ||
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| Re: Just a quick comment on Chris Moneymaker, shorn, 13. Aug 2003 07:53 | ||
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| I will reiterate what we posted about before. I am not saying that the guy doesn't have steel you-no-what's and to get that far, he played some great poker. But, the two hands that we discussed (88 vs. Humberto and 33 vs. Dutch) were IMO played quite poorly (especially the 33 given his stack size, the point in the tournament, and what was at stake). I see no reason not to discuss critically mistakes that the champ made. Bottom line...if he loses either one of those poorly played hands, we never hear from him again. So, in my mind, it is OK for us to say that he was in a streak of way above probability luck to win the thing. The true test of his ability will be whether or not he is able to money again in the next few years. If he does that, then I will begin to respect his play more. | ||
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| Re: Just a quick comment on Chris Moneymaker, Roy Cooke, 13. Aug 2003 07:58 | ||
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| I agree ! Roy Cooke on 13. Aug 2003 07:53 shorn wrote: > I will reiterate what we posted about before. I am not saying that the guy doesn't have steel > you-no-what's and to get that far, he played some great poker. But, the two hands that we discussed > (88 vs. Humberto and 33 vs. Dutch) were IMO played quite poorly (especially the 33 given his stack > size, the point in the tournament, and what was at stake). I see no reason not to discuss > critically mistakes that the champ made. Bottom line...if he loses either one of those poorly > played hands, we never hear from him again. So, in my mind, it is OK for us to say that he was in a > streak of way above probability luck to win the thing. The true test of his ability will be whether > or not he is able to money again in the next few years. If he does that, then I will begin to > respect his play more. | ||
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| Re: Just a quick comment on Chris Moneymaker, ezcheese, 13. Aug 2003 14:22 | ||
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| Chris MM is probably a better player than most of us on these forums... he made some incredible plays during the WSOP... however, just like Varkoni did the previous year, he go extremely, extremely lucky.... against phil ivey, sure phil made an arguable call... but for MM to beat him on the river after getting screwed on the turn? And for MM to win all the hands that he played horribly?? I know he's a better player than me... but the top pros at that tourney would have played all those hands much better... but luck is just as important as skill in tourneys, eh? | ||
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| Re: Just a quick comment on Chris Moneymaker, chasepoker, 13. Aug 2003 15:14 | ||
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| Again i am speaking without having seen the WSOP this year but i would guess that MM would finish higher ( on average ) than everybody on this forum. He won through all those qualifiers and then beat the cream of the crop. I would say he is probably a very good player and would not want him at my table in a NL tourny ! on 13. Aug 2003 14:22 ezcheese wrote: > Chris MM is probably a better player than most of us on these forums... he made some > incredible plays during the WSOP... however, just like Varkoni did the previous year, he > go extremely, extremely lucky.... against phil ivey, sure phil made an arguable call... > but for MM to beat him on the river after getting screwed on the turn? And for MM to win > all the hands that he played horribly?? > > I know he's a better player than me... but the top pros at that tourney would have played > all those hands much better... > > but luck is just as important as skill in tourneys, eh? Chasepoker | ||
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| Re: Just a quick comment on Chris Moneymaker, chris nelson, 14. Aug 2003 00:10 | ||
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| Roy, I think by the mere fact that there is criticism of some of his plays, that everyone is in fact giving him credit. No press is bad press. But what I feel most people are debating, yourself included, are the individual perceptions of the plays. So the critic is actually under attack. Some also just need to toot thier own horn. As you have said before, some people need to put down unjustly. But also there is a response that overly praises. Both reactions are very subjective. Some view Chris as a hero. The underdog that defied the odds and played with a ton of heart. Some view him as the enemy that repetitively pulls drawouts on them robbing them of their glory that they worked hard for. So, as you have felt the need to inject some objectivity into the negatively critical, others have attempted the same with the antithesis of negative criticism; the blind praise. Ideally, one would follow the plays of Chris(or any Poker player in the spotlight) and see things within their own game that needs to be improved. Perhaps not the actual plays but maybe an ingredient. eg. courage, trust in yourself , pushing small edges, etc.. I'm sure Chris made even better plays and much worse plays throughout that five day ordeal that we were not privvy to as I'm sure many of the seasoned tournament pros did as well. Good Night, Chris | ||
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| Re: Just a quick comment on Chris Moneymaker, Mike Caro, 14. Aug 2003 21:48 | ||
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| Chris Moneymaker was the hour-long guest today on the weekly Internet broadcast "Poker Talk with Mike and Stan" (Stan Sludikoff, publisher of Poker Player newspaper, and myself). His story is very interesting, and he is a polite and non-pretentious guest. He's also bright and personable. Although the re-broadcast comes at a very late hour for most of you (originally aired at 4 p.m. Eastern time this afternoon), you might check it out at www.voiceamerica.com (4 a.m. Eastern, 1 a.m Pacific). Straight Flushes, Mike Caro | ||
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| Re: Just a quick comment on Chris Moneymaker, MozMan, 14. Aug 2003 21:59 | ||
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| Hey Mike- How would I find what station airs voiceamerica in my area? I didn't see a station guide on the site (maybe I missed it...). -Moz "Your destiny chooses you." | ||
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| Re: Just a quick comment on Chris Moneymaker, stdioh, 14. Aug 2003 10:16 | ||
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| damn skippy. | ||
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