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Server Time: 12/1/2008 11:21:29 PM PACIFIC |
 Two pair on the flop O8, Snorbolus, 12. Aug 2003 07:08 | ||
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| I seem to be loosing money in loose, low limit O8 games when I flop 2 pair. Especially after I have come in cheaply or for free, with something marginal, from one of the blinds. For instance: I check after 5 callers with 346K in the big blind and see a flop of K24. The small blind checks. How good is this holding and what is my best play? Snorbolus | ||
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| Re: Two pair on the flop O8, 4 POKER, 12. Aug 2003 07:18 | ||
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| Hey, Your best bet is to check it along......and fold it if there is more than one bet to you. If the flop contains a two-flush, it's an automatic fold though. There's too many low/wheel draw possibilities out there already, so proceed with caution and don't let the hand cost you more than it should. If you cringe a little bit after seeing the flop?.......it's probably a good indication that your holding really isn't strong enough to pay any substantial betting with. Holding two pair is not strong enough against a field of players unless you have strong redraw (nut draws) to either side of the pot. You did have a couple of gut-shot straight outs as well but.....if you hit the straight on the turn, the nut lows are going to start jammin' the pot, and that's okay, as long as you are willing to call all those raises while getting half and maybe just a quarter of the pot, because anyone who holds the nut low draw with a piece to the straight as well, will hurt your hand tremendously. 4P- | ||
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| Re: Two pair on the flop O8, Jav, 12. Aug 2003 18:07 | ||
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| I have a question for you. What about three pair on an O8 flop. Obviously if two or more low cards are showing, then there will probably be a low and you will have no part of it. So should you just release? What about if there are 1 or no low cards and you have three pair. With no flush or straight draw showing I imagine you should bet it, since there is also a much greater chance that noone else has a set. But if there is a 2-flush, I'm not sure what to do with this hand. I guess normally you shouldn't flop three pair unless it is three high cards (giving someone else a shot at broadway), or three low cards (giving someone else a low). | ||
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| Re: Two pair on the flop O8, 4 POKER, 14. Aug 2003 02:56 | ||
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| on 12. Aug 2003 18:07 Jav wrote: > I have a question for you. What about three pair on an O8 flop. Obviously if two or more > low cards are showing, then there will probably be a low and you will have no part of it. > So should you just release? > > What about if there are 1 or no low cards and you have three pair. With no flush or > straight draw showing I imagine you should bet it, since there is also a much greater > chance that noone else has a set. But if there is a 2-flush, I'm not sure what to do with > this hand. > > I guess normally you shouldn't flop three pair unless it is three high cards (giving > someone else a shot at broadway), or three low cards (giving someone else a low). Hey Jav, It does depend on the texture of the board that is present. If you hold A-2-5-K and the flop reads A-2-5 and there is a bet and a raise to you, then even a flop like that is not good for you because someone probably already flopped a wheel given all the heavy betting. So it really *does* depend on exactly, what are the three pair that you have flopped?......How many opponents are in the hand?......WHO is in the hand with you?.......Do you think you might get them to fold if you bet?........and you must also be aware of all the cards that could come up on the turn that can really hurt your own hand now, and is it really worth putting in a bet when you're really going for just half the pot, and/or what will you do if someone raises? Do you have a re-draw with your pairs like a flush draw? Was there a raise pre-flop when you flopped Aces up? Could you soundly put this player on holding a set of Aces here? And......with several opponents in that hand........how "live" do you think your hand really is in connecting to a full house on the turn? Sometimes.....when you need to put this much emphasis on a decision on whether you should call or fold.......many times the answer will be, fold. Although flopping pairs, whether they be top two or three pair, can be the best hand at the moment.....what I take into consideration is........how many players are in the hand with me?.......and how many cards on the turn can help/hurt my own hand (if it isn't hurt already)......and what my position is with this holding now on the flop. *Sometimes* I will lead at the flop if I'm in position to do so, but sometimes I'd rather check it to see where the real hands possibly are an it gives me a slight indication as to who is betting?...who's calling?.......and are there othere now who are raising? When you get information like that......it can become clearer for you about your own hand and odds to imrove it, and is it really worth it now? And again, what are the pairs that you have flopped? Is it a flop that is too coordinated that you'd have to fear a straight card is more likely to appear here more easily now? And......do you have re-draw? If I don't have a strong enough flop, (high or low) and for me....that is also based on the actions and/or reactions of my opponents as well, and whether I will chose to press the hand a bit or just check it and fold to a bet. Again,....it all depends on the whole situation and how much experience and "feel" you have for the game and the players involved. If I'm heads up or it's three way and I think I have the best hand, say top two high pair/with a high flop, then I'll bet it now on the flop, especially if it's checked to me or I am in first position. If I get raised one bet, then I'll have to make another decision. It really does depend on alot of things.......players involved, included. But all in all, you are looking to flop a nut low/high or a draw to one with solid re-draw. Hands that have good scoop possibility on the flop is something that you want to be looking for, and hands that will be money losers many of the times that they're played (two pair on the flop without good enough re-draw) are the ones that you should be looking to get rid of so you can save those bets for a hand that *does* hit you hard enough so you can be able to show a profit for the long term result is this game. 4P- | ||
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| Re: Two pair on the flop O8, Jav, 14. Aug 2003 11:37 | ||
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| Thanks, that was very helpful. | ||
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| Re: Two pair on the flop O8, stdioh, 12. Aug 2003 09:56 | ||
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| You're getting your ass handed to you because 2 pair is not an omaha hand. It is only good in that it can turn into a top tight. We're talking about a game of the nuts, so if you have top set and there are no straights or flushes on the board then that's playable. If you don't have a set of queens or better though you can be guaranteed that it won't be the nuts by the river unless you tighten up, so you're best off folding your opponents then and there. 2 pair can be played, but only if you have lots and lots of outs. Also when looking at a board of K24, you're almost certainly playing for only half the pot since there is going to be a low. Now if you had TsJdQhAh and flopped AsJh9h you've actually got a hand. You've got top two pair, so if the board pairs one of those cards you're very likely to win it. You're on a nut flush draw, so you can win that way too. You're also up/down to the nut straight, though it's right in the playing zone so you have to be wary of getting only half. Still, there's no low so you don't have to worry about getting half that way or about getting quartered. But winning an omaha hand with 2 pair is like winning a hold'em hand with A high. You see it happen often enough, but it isn't something you can bet with and very very rarely something you can call with. When it is something you can call with, it is usually a case where you hold top 2 pair and a second nut low and there is a single opponent making a small river bet into a big pot and you say, "There's a very good chance I'll get half of it." | ||
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| Re: Two pair on the flop O8, Barry T, 12. Aug 2003 10:36 | ||
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| Hi. In Omaha/8 your first priority is to scoop. If you can't do that, then you should go away unless thre are tons of other players and you have the nuits (or a big draw for the nuts) one way. Two pair is never the nuts. It is a hand you might end up with, but not one you can play for value. You want to make nut lows and flushes in Omaha/8. Top set is good because it can make a nut full, bottom set is bad and should be discarded. Two pair should be in the muck unless it is a byproduct of a better draw. BarryT | ||
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| Re: Two pair on the flop O8, stdioh, 14. Aug 2003 10:20 | ||
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| That's very well put Barry. I think that you should add to that, that bottom two can be played for a high if you're sitting on a nut low. I'll play actively with such a hand, since my chances of getting quartered for low go down with it as long as I can push players out of the hand. I want to be able to scoop if I hit my tight and that means pushing out sets and other 2 pairs. The other school of thought is to play slow with 2 pair and nut low so that you keep enough people in the hand that you can afford to get quartered, but this is only a favourable strategy if you're at a really fishy table where players are loose and passive. | ||
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| Re: Two pair on the flop O8, Mark Gregorich, 12. Aug 2003 15:07 | ||
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| Leading out on this flop is chip suicide, particularly if a flush draw is present. You just don't want to make a big commitment to this pot, considering there are lots of turn cards which devalue your hand (any low but a 5, mainly). You are looking to scoop, and its going to be awfully difficult to scoop this one with 7 players in the pot. However, there are ways this pot can play out which will allow you to continue. If there is a bet to your left, followed by several calls, I think its worthwhile to take one off, as you will be getting the right price to draw at the full house (treat 2 pair as you would a flush draw here, not as a made hand) and , to a lesser extent, the 5. However, be quick to release on the turn when a random low card shows up and there is significant action. Two pair is very expensive when overplayed. Also, if you check the flop and it gets checked to a late position player, preferably the button, I think checkraising is the right play if you think you can get the pot to headsup (may be out of the question in this 7 player pot, however). If a checkraise will make the hand headsup, you now find yourself in a pretty decent situation. You hold the probable best hand at that point against only one other hand, and there is some dead money in the pot. If any high card hits the turn, you should bet again (including the board pairing with the deuce). Also, bet an A or a 5. You may want to check other low cards here, as your opponent likely had a better low draw than you, although I frequently keep firing anyway. Playing two pair is a tricky situation which adds volatility to your results, but there are some situations in which it is profitable to continue with the hand. Your example of the 346K is more playable than most random 2pair flops from the blind for a couple of reasons. First, you have kings-up (holding 346T and flopping tens up is not nearly as strong, as any J, Q, K, or A will make a bigger 2 pair possible). When I flop 2 pair and feel good about it in omaha, its generally kings up with an ace in my hand as protection. Second, you have the low/straight draw to fall back on. Sure, there are better low draws out there, and that draw by itself is not enough to continue with the hand. However, it does make a 5 a safe turn card, possibly even a scoop card. Also, you will often win the low if an ace comes. Still, if there is a bet and raise by the time the action returns to you, mucking this hand is generally the right thing to do (its just too vulnerable, particularly if more than one opponent has shown significant interest in the hand - folding is pretty much automatic to a raise if a flush draw is present, as it hurts your draw at the 5 too much). Hope this was helpful and that I didn't ramble too much - Mark G | ||
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