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Server Time: 12/1/2008 10:06:29 PM PACIFIC |
 Fold or Play?, Dr_Monkey, 12. Aug 2003 05:07 | ||
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| $10 SnG on Party. 4 Players left. Seat 4: (2308) Seat 7: ME (1412) Seat 8: (3056) Seat 10: (1224) Blind 50/100 I am SB, Seat 8 is BB Seat 10, UTG, raises 200. Seat 4 folds. I have Ac Jh. I really don't have a read on the raiser. He was at 400 recently. He won a big pot with AKo. Then took out another small stack with a marginal hand. For 150, I wanted to see the flop. So did BB. 3 player see the flop. [ 5s, 4h, 4c ] This flop missed me. Don't like to see a pair on the flop. Possible full house for someone. (Bad thinking?) BB bets 100 UTG raises 200. It's 200 to me. Is this a good time to fold? To call I would have 1000 left. I have a feeling that the BB would call. Thought it would be best to let them battle it out. I folded. Turn and River were J J [ 5s 4h 4c Jd Js ] I would have had J J J 4 4. UTG bet the turn and river (all in by the river). BB folded. Said he had 3 6 and UTG said he had AK. If I had bet the flop, is 4 4 J J (my hand on the turn) something you would play if the UTG bet 350? That bet would make me nervous. | ||
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| Re: Fold or Play?, 4 POKER, 12. Aug 2003 05:18 | ||
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| You played it right. Don't think of what "could have been".......... Calling pre-flop with the hand is ok IMO, but you have to know when to let it go as well. Even if Ace high was good there, it's too hard for you to commit your stack there with that board. But......if your opponent raised with an Ace, you still could be outkicked by AK and AQ, so the only way you could possibly win the hand is by betting it yourself by going all-in and hope that the other two fold, but calling in that spot would be tough. | ||
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| Re: Fold or Play?, Guru, 12. Aug 2003 05:27 | ||
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| You were right to fold here IMO. The flop missed you and with the pre-flop raising, you have to respect the hands of your opponents. At this point, you had a pair of fours with an ace kicker. Anyone that came in with pocket pair, AK, or AQ is leading you. You have to believe that one of these hands is likely in play. I understand how hard it is to fold then watch two miracle cards pop off for you, but that will happen so rarely, it's not funny. Feel good that you made the right move. | ||
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| Review of the rest of my play..., Dr_Monkey, 12. Aug 2003 06:17 | ||
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| Thanks for the comments on the AJ play. I feel alot better about my play. However, this hand probably cost me the tournament. I was at 1200 and the others had 2000+. The remaining 3 played very passive against each other as I got blinded away. I don't think I had any cards that were worth playing after this hand: [ 6h, 7s ] [ Tc, 4h ] [ Qd, 8d ] Was BB on this hand. 100/200 blinds. UTG raised to 400. I called. Had 1000 after the blinds. UTG probably was trying to steal blinds. Wanted to see a flop. Reasoning: Suited. Q8 is not too bad. Have to play with something. Flop comes: [ Tc, 3d, Kc ] I checked knowing that UTG would bet. He bet 600. I had to fold. Was this a bad call and bad fold??? [ 3c, 6c ] SB. Folded around. I folded. Having 812 in chips, I think the BB with 2700 might have called an all in. [ 7s, 6s ] [ 9s, 4c ] [ 7s, 3h ] Button bet 700. I had 712. Probable blind steal. But I can't call with this hand??? [ 8d, 3d ] SB. Folded around to me. 512 to 3006. Guessing any raise would be called. [ 8h, 5c ] [ 6s, 2s ] [ 9s, Td ] BB with 412. 100/200. UTG raises to 400. I call. Blinds going up after this hand. It's probably now or never. I fold a pair of 9s. Turn gives him set of 4s. I am out. I think that my Q8 calling the raise was dumb. I would have had 612 with the 9T and probably would have folded. Other than that, my cards weren't playable were they? | ||
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| Re: Review of the rest of my play..., 4 POKER, 12. Aug 2003 06:27 | ||
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| That's tough. With just a few players left, and being fairly low on chips...that's where you're really gonna have to get something to play back with because anyone who has a decent chip count will either try to push you around or they will call any of your raises as to try and knock you out of the tourney with little at risk for them to accomplish that. Your best hope would be to see two of these players go into a raising war and one of them gets knocked out all together so you can now move up the money ladder. Sometimes....when you're low on chips, it's more advantageous to just sit back and wait for that to happen....unless of course, you're dealt a strong hand. I could be wrong here, but I don't think calling a raise for that amount with Q-8 suited is all that bad of a call....but unless you flop something or are able to make a "play" at the flop, It's once again, going to put you in a very tough spot now. I just don't think you had much left to defend with at the end there........it happens. The blinds become so high, and when your low on chips or if you don't get anything at all to play........you either have to go all-in on a steal/bluff, or you have to hope that you're dealt a strong enough holding to keep you alive. Even Ace high sometimes is good enough.....especially if you're getting really low. You have to make a "stand" sometimes. 4P- | ||
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| Re: Review of the rest of my play..., chasepoker, 12. Aug 2003 08:52 | ||
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| As for your first play of the AJ i think that was okay and the running J's are of no importance to you, remember poker is a decision based game NOT a results based game, but making the right decision will in the long term get you the results you desire. As for later when you were looking short stacked i would have gone all in ( i am presuming it was NL ) probably the first time i was on the button and no-one had raised and also probably with the suited 67. You have to take a stand and i believe these 2 siutations are the best to try it. Also as a further point i always prefer to make an all in bet when i have a chip stack that is large enough to make someone fold the blinds( usually at least 3 times the BB depends on the sotuation ) giving me an extra edge. When you get to the stage where you have to go all in with a hand certain to be called you are in trouble, i believe. Of course if everyone else is going all in every hand then sit back and wait but that doesnt often, IMO ,on sit and go's. If you are the short stack i believe you HAVE to make a stand before you get anted away and then doubling up means you are back to square one. Cheers CP on 12. Aug 2003 06:17 Dr_Monkey wrote: > Thanks for the comments on the AJ play. I feel alot better about my play. > > However, this hand probably cost me the tournament. I was at 1200 and the others > had 2000+. The remaining 3 played very passive against each other as I got blinded > away. > > I don't think I had any cards that were worth playing after this hand: > [ 6h, 7s ] > > [ Tc, 4h ] > > [ Qd, 8d ] Was BB on this hand. 100/200 blinds. UTG raised to 400. I called. > Had 1000 after the blinds. UTG probably was trying to steal blinds. Wanted to see a > flop. Reasoning: Suited. Q8 is not too bad. Have to play with something. Flop > comes: [ Tc, 3d, Kc ] > I checked knowing that UTG would bet. He bet 600. I had to fold. > Was this a bad call and bad fold??? > > [ 3c, 6c ] SB. Folded around. I folded. Having 812 in chips, I think the BB with > 2700 might have called an all in. > > [ 7s, 6s ] > > [ 9s, 4c ] > > [ 7s, 3h ] Button bet 700. I had 712. Probable blind steal. But I can't call > with this hand??? > > [ 8d, 3d ] SB. Folded around to me. 512 to 3006. Guessing any raise would be > called. > > [ 8h, 5c ] > > [ 6s, 2s ] > > [ 9s, Td ] BB with 412. 100/200. UTG raises to 400. I call. Blinds going up > after this hand. It's probably now or never. > I fold a pair of 9s. Turn gives him set of 4s. I am out. > > > I think that my Q8 calling the raise was dumb. I would have had 612 with the 9T and > probably would have folded. Other than that, my cards weren't playable were they? > > > > > Chasepoker | ||
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| Re: Review of the rest of my play..., Dr_Monkey, 12. Aug 2003 11:27 | ||
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| Go all in when nobody has raised? What about called. The very next hand I was on the button with 67o and the UTG called. I had about 50% of his chip size, would you shove all in hoping for a fold? The next time I was on the button, I got 67s. (spooky) It was folded to me. An all in of 712 surely would be called?? I thought about going all in but really lost my nerve, was hoping to see a raising war and sneak in the money. Since it looked like the other 3 players weren't wreckless, I should have taken a stand. on 12. Aug 2003 08:52 chasepoker wrote: > As for later when you were looking short stacked i would have gone all in ( i am > presuming it was NL ) probably the first time i was on the button and no-one had raised > and also probably with the suited 67. You have to take a stand and i believe these 2 > siutations are the best to try it. Also as a further point i always prefer to make an all | ||
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| Re: Fold or Play?, McMonkey, 12. Aug 2003 06:20 | ||
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| I agree with Guru and 4Poker, you made the right move folding. You can't always assume your opponent has the goods, but with 2 opponents a lot of betting and a flop that missed you, you HAVE to fold. As far as the 2 Jacks coming, I find that I rest so much easier at night on the days when I can instantly forget what I had the moment I toss the cards into the muck or press the fold button. Sometimes I'll get the hand history and look at it the next day when I can look at it in a more objective light, but in the middle (or especially near the end) of a tournament, thinking about what if's is only going to hurt your game. Of course, it's much easier said than done. | ||
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| Re: Fold or Play?, Barry T, 12. Aug 2003 08:57 | ||
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| Hi. I prefer a pre-flop fold. You do not want to play a marginal hand out of position, especially when you are not the aggressor. How wil you play this hand when an ace flops? When a jack flops? Do you really want to go broke in these circumstances? In the situation you were in, post-flop, a fold is obvious. Would you still post this hand if it came 7-9 instead of J-J? BarryT | ||
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| Re: Fold or Play?, Dr_Monkey, 12. Aug 2003 11:40 | ||
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| on 12. Aug 2003 08:57 Barry T wrote: > Hi. I prefer a pre-flop fold. You do not want to play a marginal hand out of > position, especially when you are not the aggressor. > > How wil you play this hand when an ace flops? When a jack flops? Do you really > want to go broke in these circumstances? I understand what you are saying. My reasoning for playing, and I honestly think this isn't my normal choice to play, was because I thought I had to "make" something happen. Otherwise, I would probably blind out. But if I didn't play, I would have 150 more and wouldn't have played the Q8 for 200. I really thought I was playing with some knowledgable players that were trying to steal. If I didn't take a stand, I was surely done for. And AJ is a decent hand to take a stand with. If an A hit, I probably would have stayed in. Then if JJ hits, I am happy. Otherwise, I lose to the AK (if he had it). If a J hits, I definately would have stayed to the end. > > In the situation you were in, post-flop, a fold is obvious. Would you still post > this hand if it came 7-9 instead of J-J? > If it wasn't J-J, I might still be asking how well I played the cards I was given. But I do see your point. I am still trying to learn how to play at the end of a SnG. If there are no raisers, I am pretty good at stealing blinds. I have problems when the blinds are high and 1) there are alot of players still in the game, or 2) 4 or 5 players, and 1 or 2 are agressive and are trying to steal blinds. | ||
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| Re: Fold or Play?, stdioh, 12. Aug 2003 10:00 | ||
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| First of all, you can call a raise with AJ here because you are only 4 handed, but if you don't hit your hand, chances are very good that the raiser has a better ace than you or a pair, so on the flop you have to doubt very much that you're good. You're not getting good odds to draw and if you hit your hand the board is too scary to bet it large so you have no implied odds with this hand. I would have pitched the cards on the flop. Come to think of it, if top 3 are paid here, I would have folded the AJ preflop. You've got enough money to wait out your opponents and you shouldn't be calling raises with junk like AJ when in this tight a scenario. | ||
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