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Server Time: 12/1/2008 11:23:16 PM PACIFIC |
 Interesting (great) hand in 5-10 shorthanded, palman, 8. Aug 2003 17:22 | ||
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| 6 handed, 5/10 on party.... I was on the button, with 44, and I believe it was 2 bet preflop. Board comes down 345. 4 players are involved in the pot. 1st to act has 32 2nd to act ?? 3rd to act has 67. It gets 4 bet between me and the 67 on the flop. (with 2 other people calling all bets) So at this point I was worried about a higher set perhaps. Turn comes the 4. I've got four 4's. The turn and river proceed to get 4 bet. Every single player in the pot managed to raise at different times. Perhaps the ?? had another full house, but the guy with the 2 four betting (Ace fell on the river giving him the low straight, so he threw in for four bets as well) Pot 358 dollars. The happiest moment of my life. | ||
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| Re: Interesting (great) hand in 5-10 shorthanded, 4 POKER, 8. Aug 2003 17:28 | ||
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| I'm glad you won the pot palman and that was a HUGE pot at that, but I'm still surprisesd that you would call 2 bets cold with 4-4, even being on the button. Maybe if everyone had limped in, I would limp in as well, but I wouldn't call 2 bets cold with that hand. Overall, in that situation, 4-4 is -EV IMO. | ||
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| Re: Interesting (great) hand in 5-10 shorthanded, palman, 8. Aug 2003 17:49 | ||
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| As I wrote that I did wonder if it was 2 bets, because I normally would muck that. Perhaps it was something where I made it 1 bet, and then one of the blinds made it to 2 and I called that. Or it was just 1 bet. Because if I did just limp, then it's +EV to call another bet with 3 other people in the pot. Now the question is, is limping in a loose game (the guy with the low straight draw 23 4 betting it is an example) profitable? In such a loose game I would think it would be, but I'm no expert. thoughts? | ||
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| Re: Interesting (great) hand in 5-10 shorthanded, 4 POKER, 8. Aug 2003 17:58 | ||
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| on 8. Aug 2003 17:49 palman wrote: > As I wrote that I did wonder if it was 2 bets, because I normally would muck that. > > Perhaps it was something where I made it 1 bet, and then one of the blinds made it to 2 > and I called that. Or it was just 1 bet. > Ahh, I see. Well good for you again, palman! Nice to hit the quads right on the turn! (especially that you needed it too). > Because if I did just limp, then it's +EV to call after its 2 bets with 3 other people in > the pot. Now the question is, is limping in a loose game (the guy with the low straight > draw 23 4 betting it is an example) profitable? > > In such a loose game I would think it would be, but I'm no expert. thoughts? My thoughts are.....that hand won't hit enough times to make it profitable enough to play it, but that's just what I've expereinced from those small PP, especially in low limits. | ||
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| Re: Interesting (great) hand in 5-10 shorthanded, palman, 8. Aug 2003 18:09 | ||
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| >>My thoughts are.....that hand won't hit enough times to make it profitable enough to play it, but that's just what I've expereinced from those small PP. Well your experience far outweighs mine. Perhaps after considering that the action in that hand was common, that if you do hit its likely to be more profitable than playing with tight players. No one without a full house should have been raising on the river, yet at least 2 people were (they didnt show the 3rd guy's hand. I don't think my image was all too tight (not surprising if we're questioning my starting standards) I was definately on a rush even before that hand, so my raises wouldn't get that much respect if I do hit the set (although on this particular hand I didnt even need to do the raising =) I definately lower my starting standards in shorthanded play with people calling to the river with gutshots. In this particular game, you couldn't bluff 3rd pair out no matter what kinda moves you put on them. | ||
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| Re: Interesting (great) hand in 5-10 shorthanded, 4 POKER, 8. Aug 2003 18:17 | ||
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| I just wouldn't lower my standards too much in that type of game (6 player max), because even though you're not playing with nine other opponents....6 players is still enough players to stick to pretty strong starting hands. That's just MO. I enjoy the 6 player max games myself, but I still will pick my spots carefully given my position as well. 4 POKER | ||
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| Re: Interesting (great) hand in 5-10 shorthanded, palman, 8. Aug 2003 18:21 | ||
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| Perhaps the main consideration that would support your thoughts would be the raising requirements of either of the blinds. If loose then limping knowing its 2 bets likely isn't profitable. 8:1 to hit the set on the flop, so you'd need to win forty bucks on average on a pot unraised preflop(rough numbers, and not adding in the times your set loses, which I'd estimate at 20-25% with 3 other players (thoughts on that %?) ) Forty bucks profit usually means a 60-70 dollar pot (including my share of the bets) Thus it would need to be about a 120 dollar pot in order to call 2 bets assuming your set doesnt lose to knowingly call 2 bets. All of this rough math looks as if the small pp's arent profitable in raised preflop hands, and marginal in unraised hands with 4 players. But calling after limping if you do it I think you have to do. Especially with 3 other ppl in the pot. | ||
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| Re: Interesting (great) hand in 5-10 shorthanded, ODB72, 8. Aug 2003 18:38 | ||
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| Imagine that! Browsing UPF and I see a post about the biggest pot I LOST all day. LOL. Here is the hand history and as far as palman calling 2 bets with 4-4, it was justifiable. The raiser, in the small blind, is a very loose raiser. Not only in this particular game but I have played with him before. Looking at the hand history, I played my hand bad ( I had the wheel). However, it was one of those hands where you get caught up in a big pot and just bet without really taking time and thinking. Anyway, good hand palman. Luckily I made it all back shortly later. ***** Hand History for Game 130687712 ***** 5/10 TexasHTGameTable (Limit) - Fri Aug 08 20:16:38 EDT 2003 Table Card Room Table 1641 (6 max) (Real Money) -- Seat 2 is the button Total number of players : 6 Seat 1: sushiboy ( $560) Seat 2: luckykid ( $691) Seat 3: Roddy266 ( $123) Seat 4: Tupac_Shakur ( $257) Seat 5: JJBEN ( $245) Seat 6: RFK001 ( $131) Roddy266 posts small blind (2) Tupac_Shakur posts big blind (5) ** Dealing down cards ** Dealt to Tupac_Shakur [ 2d, 3h ] JJBEN calls (5) RFK001 folds. sushiboy folds. luckykid calls (5) Roddy266 raises (8) to 10 Tupac_Shakur calls (5) JJBEN calls (5) luckykid calls (5) ** Dealing Flop ** : [ 4d, 5h, 8s ] Roddy266 bets (5) Tupac_Shakur calls (5) JJBEN raises (10) to 10 luckykid calls (10) Roddy266 raises (10) to 15 Tupac_Shakur raises (15) to 20 JJBEN calls (10) luckykid calls (10) Roddy266 calls (5) ** Dealing Turn ** : [ 4s ] Roddy266 bets (10) Tupac_Shakur calls (10) JJBEN calls (10) luckykid raises (20) to 20 Roddy266 calls (10) Tupac_Shakur calls (10) JJBEN calls (10) ** Dealing River ** : [ Ac ] Roddy266 bets (10) Tupac_Shakur raises (20) to 20 JJBEN calls (20) luckykid raises (30) to 30 Roddy266 calls (20) Tupac_Shakur raises (20) to 40 JJBEN calls (20) luckykid calls (10) Roddy266 calls (10) sushiboy: wow, big pot ** Summary ** Main Pot: $358 | Rake: $2 Board: [ 4d 5h 8s 4s Ac ] sushiboy balance $560, didn't bet (folded) luckykid balance $959, bet $90, collected $358, net +$268 [ 4c 4h ] [ four of a kind, fours -- Ac,4c,4h,4d,4s ] Roddy266 balance $33, lost $90 [ Th As ] [ two pairs, aces and fours -- As,Ac,Th,4d,4s ] Tupac_Shakur balance $167, lost $90 [ 2d 3h ] [ a straight, ace to five -- Ac,5h,4d,3h,2d ] JJBEN balance $155, lost $90 [ 6h 7h ] [ a straight, four to eight -- 8s,7h,6h,5h,4d ] RFK001 balance $131, didn't bet (folded) For detailed handhistory, click here | ||
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| Re: Interesting (great) hand in 5-10 shorthanded, palman, 8. Aug 2003 18:50 | ||
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| heh shows how accurately I remember that hand. Ok... the 23 sounds a little better with the actual flop than the 345 I thought the flop was. I just knew that the 67 had the straight on the flop, so assumed it was 345, not 458. Roddy with the A10 is the funny one there. And it was the flop and river that got max bet. | ||
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| Re: Interesting (great) hand in 5-10 shorthanded, palman, 8. Aug 2003 18:53 | ||
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| Was a great session for me except for the 3 times my KK was a loser and I didnt lay it down quick enough if at all during the hand. When talking about shorthanded strategy its amazing the variety of debates people have as far as correct strategy. I still have no real idea of correct shorthanded strategy, more just instinct at this point. I do know that I have loose starting requirements as soon as I think I know most of the players betting patterns. | ||
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| Re: Interesting (great) hand in 5-10 shorthanded, palman, 8. Aug 2003 19:00 | ||
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| any thoughts on my play ODB? I certainly am not utterly confident in my shorthanded play, but am in the process of playing and learning now. I think I notice mistakes I make, but it seems that a bunch of other players at our level seem to make similar mistakes or different ones. | ||
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| Re: Interesting (great) hand in 5-10 shorthanded, ODB72, 8. Aug 2003 19:55 | ||
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| During the time we played together, I thought you did well. Since you asked I went to my pokertracker and looked over some of the hands. I think your hand selection is good, not too loose and not too tight. Bout 38% of flops seen, not in blind, which is reasonable for shorthanded. In one particular hand I think you made a real nice play. You had K-6, flop came A-6-x rainbow, you bet, Roddy raised, you reraised. Instead of calling him to the river and allowing him to catch, you took control of the hand and put him on the defensive and made him pay to draw. That is the aggression that I believe is necessary to win in these games. I think most of the players in the 5-10 (6 handed) at Party are over aggressive and try to bluff frequently, so when you catch you can make it payoff, as long as you have a good idea where you are in the hand. Obviously, in this case you were pretty sure Roddy didn't have an A. Sorry I don't have a lot of input, but we didn't play together long enough. As far as shorthanded strategy, I may write a separate post later on how I prefer to play and see what others think. I play almost exclusively shorthanded now, switching between the 5-10 and 1-2 tables. Going from 5-10 to 1-2 is usually a drastic gear down. I really, really, really wish Party would offer 3-6 and 2-4 6 handed tables. Anyway I'll post some thoughts on shorthanded games either later tonight or tomorrow. I'd also be interested to hear your thoughts on shorthanded games, in particular the 5-10 at Party. Later. | ||
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| Re: Interesting (great) hand in 5-10 shorthanded, palman, 8. Aug 2003 20:13 | ||
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| can't post this one under yours..... but yeah, roddy (the same guy who went for all the bets with the A10 in my big hand) bluffed way too much, and as soon as he raised I was fairly certain he didn't have the A. I forget what it was that he had (maybe it didnt show) but I assumed him just on a complete draw or the 3rd pair. It didnt hurt that on the turn and river nothing came higher than a 6 (river might have been a 7 or 9, but it didnt help him(if I remember correctly he held 610o), I think I checked the river) I actually remember feeling quite good on that particular hand as well. My biggest mistakes in the shorthanded play is leading out more often than I'd like and not respecting position enough. When someone re-raises on the turn and I've got top pair, paying it off by going to the showdown when I know he has it, either I havent caught him bluffing in the hour that I've played with him, etc (on the other hand, folding too often in this situation is troublesome, for everyone will start doing it eventually and it will cost you pots) And semi-bluffing or bluffing in situations where the other guy is going to a showdown anyways. Also granted ODB, when you were playing with me, it was during a run of cards, so of course it looks like I know what I'm doing there. (from 200 to leaving with 1100) | ||
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