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Server Time: 2/12/2012 4:16:53 AM PACIFIC |
 tuff spot with KK, grant pittman, 8. Aug 2003 08:35 | ||
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| I have a poker tale to tell everyone but i will sort of spoil the story by telling you first that i think the decision i make in the hand is close either way. I decided not to travel this summer to play poker since i havent taken any sort of real holiday in 5 years. I play online when im home and have come to enjoy it a lot. My friend Pat,who also lives in the Toronto area and plays professionally convinced me to travel to a casino north of Toronto to play. I dont have a great record playing there but i felt like playing live so I went. The game is holdem and the limit is anywhere from 50-100 to 100-200 often settling at 75-150 which is what we were playing this night. Here is the situation.......I am sitting in the #1 seat and Pat is in #11(yes they play 11 handed there!!!! YUK!!!!). Pat is sitting immediately to the left of the weakest player in the game. This player simply plays too many weak hands preflop given the ability of his opponents and he often raises these hands. Pat is well aware of this tendency. I happen to be aware that Pat is aware(neat stuff!!!) The loose player opens the pot for a raise and Pat 3 bets him to $225. I am next to act and have KcKd and cap the betting at $300. The blinds fold and both players call. The flop looks good to me.....10d-4h-3c. Both players check and I bet. Both call.Now here is my thinking.....the loose player could have a lot of hands and Im not going to twist my brain guessing what they may be.But i have learned something about my buddys hand for sure. Pat doesnt hold JJ or QQ because he simply wouldnt play the hand this passively. Pat has to know I hold a huge hand here from my preflop betting. If Pat held JJor QQ he would take action on the flop by leading into me or check raising since his hand is very vulnerable and he would like to fold the loose player if possible. It is also unlikely that Pat holds a hand like 88,99 etc for the same reasons. I decide that Pat holds either AK(likely suited and is hoping for a good turn card) or YUK!!!!!! he holds 10,10. There is also a small possibility that Pat has 4,4 or 3,3 but it is remote since he is aware that 3 betting this is marginal at best in the situation preflop. Another ugly possibility is that Pat has AA. Notice that preflop I capped the pot and Pat never had to show the real strength of his hand. Ok....the turn brings the 7c for a board of 10-4-3-7 with two clubs. Again they both check and I bet. The loose player calls and now Pat check raises me. YUK again!!! I am sure Im ahead of the loose player so I forget about him. Pat is really bothering me now!!! I start to believe he has a set of tens and again I cant exclude any of the other sets possible. Pat would play AA this way also so I cant rule this out. The other possibility is that he holds a hand that contains a pair with some type of draw and is semi bluffing here.I consider what the combination would have to be. Pat would 3 bet loose guy with ak,aq,or even aj of clubs preflop. But would he take the flop off with no pair after me 4 betting preflop? Perhaps but here was the deciding factor for my decision. I held the king of clubs and since he couldnt hold AK clubs that meant that pat would have had to call the flop with no pair with a real possibility of facing AA or KK from me and then he would have had to be brave (or foolish ) enough to check raise both opponents with no hand and only a draw to win since it was very unlikely we would both fold this now healthy pot. Pat plays too well to try this play. The pot contained $1850 at this point and i needed a king to win it. The odds werent close and I mucked my hand. The loose player also folded so we didnt see Pats hand but later at dinner he told me he held A,10 of clubs. He had top pair with the nut flush draw. I folded the best hand and we will never know if it would have held up but im ok with my choice to fold. Pat took a real gamble on the turn that i would fold since he should have known i was likely to have an overpair and wouldnt release but it worked out well for him.Hmmmmmm. I ended up blowing $5500 in the game. Thanx Pat. GRANT PITTMAN | ||
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| Re: tuff spot with KK, chasepoker, 8. Aug 2003 08:49 | ||
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| Despite the outcome ( him telling you he had ATc ) were you happy with your fold ? Chasepoker | ||
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| Re: tuff spot with KK, Mark, 8. Aug 2003 10:37 | ||
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| What a tough hand to play. As you were describing the hand, i thought you might be limiting the number of hands Pat would 3-bet a loose bettor with, but then again you know him and I don't. Initially calling seems to be a boarder line situation depending on your knowledge and read of Pat. But as I tried to work out some Sklansky like math, i found that calling is a bettor play unless Pat would only check-raise a nut hand. If you think that Pat would 3bet pre-flop with AKs, AQs, or AJs, are you positive you can't include QJs ( since he's playing the player). Also, A10s would be a possible hand for some players. Would Pat 3 bet with a 33 or 44? I know i wouldn't agaisnt 2 overcards that will call me down (the original bettor). I was trying to do some math on this problem and have no idea if i'm right or not but...... If Pat is capable of raising you on the turn with only a draw, you should call. Hands against you 10,10 - 3 4, 4 - 6 3,3 - 6 A,10s - 16 AQs - 16 AJs -16 You may be leading on the turn in 48 of 63 situations. Thats nearly a 4:1 favorite. Of the times you are in the lead, you will still lose one in 5 times when Pat makes a flush, and another .3 in 5 times Pat pairs his ace. This means you are about 2.7:2 favorite. With 12:1 pot odds, I think a call would be in order. If Pat would also play QJs this way, you may be as much as a 2:1 favorite. Now, if Pat wouldn't check-raise a draw on the turn, it is closer call, but still a call is correct: Hands against you 10,10 - 3 4,4 - 6 3,3 - 6 A,10 - 16 (you mentioned the posibility of a pair and draw. The only probable pair-draw combo is A10s) You are 16 to 15 favorite to be leading on the turn. Even when you devalue your odds to factor in his flush and Ace possiblities, at worst you are better than a 2:1 dog. With 12:1 pot odds, a call is still in order. If he would only make the play with a set or bettor, you no longer have odds to call. If your not sure what he would do, by averaging all three possibilities, you are probably only an 9:1 dog. Again, with the 12:1 pot odds, a clear call. Now, i am not capable of doing all this at the table, but if my math is right (or close) you probably should have called. Mark | ||
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| Re: tuff spot with KK, Schuster, 8. Aug 2003 12:18 | ||
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| > If Pat is capable of raising you on the turn with only a draw, you should call. > > Hands against you > 10,10 - 3 > 4, 4 - 6 > 3,3 - 6 > A,10s - 16 > AQs - 16 > AJs -16 There are only 4 ways to make each of AQs and AJs, and only 3 ways of making ATs since the 10 is on the board. Also AA must be considered. And since the 3 and 4 are on the board, there are only 3 ways left of making those hands. It looks like this. TT - 3 44 - 3 33 - 3 ATs - 3 AQs - 4 AJs - 4 AA - 6 You are only ahead if he has ATs, AQs, or AJs, and only 1 combo of each of those gives him a draw at the flush. Basically, you are ahead with 3 of the hands that you believe he will checkraise with and are a behind to 15 of them, drawing dead to a king. So you're 5:1 to be a dog on the turn, and even those hands that you are beating, he still has 11 outs with AQs and AJs, and 14 with ATs. He's about 26% to make a hand that beats you by the river, which makes you a little worst than 7 to 1 to have the best hand to the river. You're implied odds of calling to the river are only 6.666 to 1, figuring you have to call the turn bet and the river bet. It's a fold, but barely. I didn't go back through the math, but I suspect if you eliminate 33 and 44, the fold turns into a close call. Of course, doing this math at the table would be nigh impossible, but what can you do. Very tough hand, and thanks for posting it Grant. I had a lot of fun with it! Lee | ||
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| Re: tuff spot with KK, Mark, 8. Aug 2003 20:22 | ||
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| Right, thanks for the corrections Mark | ||
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| Re: tuff spot with KK, Roy Cooke, 8. Aug 2003 11:41 | ||
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| You would think a guy with a college degree would know how to spell tough! Roy Cooke on 8. Aug 2003 08:35 grant pittman wrote: > I have a poker tale to tell everyone but i will sort of spoil the story by > telling you first that i think the decision i make in the hand is close either > way. I decided not to travel this summer to play poker since i havent taken any > sort of real holiday in 5 years. I play online when im home and have come to > enjoy it a lot. My friend Pat,who also lives in the Toronto area and plays > professionally convinced me to travel to a casino north of Toronto to play. I > dont have a great record playing there but i felt like playing live so I went. > The game is holdem and the limit is anywhere from 50-100 to 100-200 often > settling at 75-150 which is what we were playing this night. Here is the > situation.......I am sitting in the #1 seat and Pat is in #11(yes they play 11 > handed there!!!! YUK!!!!). Pat is sitting immediately to the left of the weakest > player in the game. This player simply plays too many weak hands preflop given > the ability of his opponents and he often raises these hands. Pat is well aware > of this tendency. I happen to be aware that Pat is aware(neat stuff!!!) The > loose player opens the pot for a raise and Pat 3 bets him to $225. I am next to > act and have KcKd and cap the betting at $300. The blinds fold and both players > call. The flop looks good to me.....10d-4h-3c. Both players check and I bet. > Both call.Now here is my thinking.....the loose player could have a lot of hands > and Im not going to twist my brain guessing what they may be.But i have learned > something about my buddys hand for sure. Pat doesnt hold JJ or QQ because he > simply wouldnt play the hand this passively. Pat has to know I hold a huge hand > here from my preflop betting. If Pat held JJor QQ he would take action on the > flop by leading into me or check raising since his hand is very vulnerable and > he would like to fold the loose player if possible. It is also unlikely that Pat > holds a hand like 88,99 etc for the same reasons. I decide that Pat holds either > AK(likely suited and is hoping for a good turn card) or YUK!!!!!! he holds > 10,10. There is also a small possibility that Pat has 4,4 or 3,3 but it is > remote since he is aware that 3 betting this is marginal at best in the > situation preflop. Another ugly possibility is that Pat has AA. Notice that > preflop I capped the pot and Pat never had to show the real strength of his > hand. Ok....the turn brings the 7c for a board of 10-4-3-7 with two clubs. Again > they both check and I bet. The loose player calls and now Pat check raises me. > YUK again!!! I am sure Im ahead of the loose player so I forget about him. Pat > is really bothering me now!!! I start to believe he has a set of tens and again > I cant exclude any of the other sets possible. Pat would play AA this way also > so I cant rule this out. The other possibility is that he holds a hand that > contains a pair with some type of draw and is semi bluffing here.I consider what > the combination would have to be. Pat would 3 bet loose guy with ak,aq,or even > aj of clubs preflop. But would he take the flop off with no pair after me 4 > betting preflop? Perhaps but here was the deciding factor for my decision. I > held the king of clubs and since he couldnt hold AK clubs that meant that pat > would have had to call the flop with no pair with a real possibility of facing > AA or KK from me and then he would have had to be brave (or foolish ) enough to > check raise both opponents with no hand and only a draw to win since it was very > unlikely we would both fold this now healthy pot. Pat plays too well to try this > play. The pot contained $1850 at this point and i needed a king to win it. The > odds werent close and I mucked my hand. The loose player also folded so we didnt > see Pats hand but later at dinner he told me he held A,10 of clubs. He had top > pair with the nut flush draw. I folded the best hand and we will never know if > it would have held up but im ok with my choice to fold. Pat took a real gamble > on the turn that i would fold since he should have known i was likely to have an > overpair and wouldnt release but it worked out well for him.Hmmmmmm. I ended up > blowing $5500 in the game. Thanx Pat. GRANT PITTMAN | ||
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| Re: tuff spot with KK, 4 POKER, 9. Aug 2003 04:25 | ||
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| Grant, I really don't think it was a bad move on Pats' part. If he knows that you play really well and you're able/capable to lay down a big pocket pair after he now check-raises the turn, it makes it eaiser for him to make it seem like he holds a set here, thinking that you wouldn't call even though it's just one more bet. You'd still be drawing to a two-outer by the way he made it appear to you. If he just leads at the turn, he *knows you're going to at least call and that takes his chances away of getting you to fold off your hand right on the turn...where he wants you to fold it. The check-raise play is more affective IMO than the lead out bet would be, or the check-call option would be, too. He also does hold top pair on the board with the nut flush draw, so his play still has merit and if he gives you something like A-K, a smaller pocket pair than the ten, or A-Q suited, he may want to check-raise it as well by now putting more money into the pot with his own hand in which he thinks is the best hand. I like the way he played his hand as opposed to just check calling you all the way, or just leading at the turn. Your re-raise pre-flop doesn't necessarily mean that you hold a pocket pair higher to the top pair (10) that is out there, but I think he wanted you out on the turn and used his best, decpetive way of accomplishing that. He also could've very well mis-read you there.....which is in all essense what happened. Maybe he *didn't* give you a big pair and thought that he did indeed hold the best hand with definately a good draw to go with it. 4 POKER | ||
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| Re: tuff spot with KK, LJH, 10. Aug 2003 14:38 | ||
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| GRANT, IT TAKES ALL KINDS. LJH | ||
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