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Server Time: 10/6/2008 5:00:26 PM PACIFIC |
 one more hand, mongi, 7. Aug 2003 11:37 | ||
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| somewhat loose typical 4-8 holdem game. utg (very solid player) limps middle position player raises (very loose player raises about 75% of the time he is in a hand) the player next to him calls (tight passive player would only be in the hand if he had at least top pair or a great draw). The button calls ( a rock). I call from the BB with Qs 7s now the utg reraises and of course the loose player caps and everyone calls including myself ( maybe I should have mucked). This was the first time preflop had been reraised. The flop comes Kh 7d 6h. I check, utg checks, loose player bets everyone calls including me utg folds. The turn is a 2c loose player bets tight passive guy calls, next player folds ,I fold( I think given the pot size I should have called I was getting 14-1 odds and was about 8-1 underdog at this point). I was also last to act on this betting round so I knew I couldn't get raised and it was very possible the loose raiser had nothing. I folded because I knew the tight passive guy had a king and I wasn't 100% convinced my queen was a clean out. A blank hit the river both guys checked as predicted loose guy had nothing and tight passive had a King. Please comment on possible mistakes that I made here. By the way, I thought about check-raising on the turn and in hindsight I am pretty sure tight passive would have folded. Thanks. | ||
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| Re: one more hand, mongi, 7. Aug 2003 11:40 | ||
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| I apologize, actually a queen hit the river giving me two pair. I would have won. | ||
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| Re: one more hand, shorn, 7. Aug 2003 11:49 | ||
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| I think calling the first raise pre-flop was your biggest mistake. If you had such a good read on these players (based on your descriptions of very solid and rock players), then there is no way I would have called the initial raise with that hand. It's trash (not trying to be too harsh here). After you were in, I think you probably should have called the turn with your 5-outer as the pot was laying you at least 8-1 and I think your outs were clean (with the possible exception of someone holding KQ). Anyway, this is a good example of compounding errors, although you got yourself into a turn decision after (IMO) a bad preflop call and a bad flop call. So, I would have called the turn with all the $$ in there if I had gotten that far. Steve | ||
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| Re: one more hand, Schuster, 7. Aug 2003 12:01 | ||
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| I agree with shorn here. Q-7, suited or not, is dominated six ways from sunday. You can't feel good about hitting a queen, and hitting a 7 as top pair will only have people drawing to overcards. You're playing for a flush here, and it's only a queen flush. I'd save my money for a better spot. Lee | ||
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| Re: one more hand, Mark, 7. Aug 2003 12:14 | ||
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| I think you were calling way too loose in this situation, especially given your good reads. this may sound a bit harsh but.... Pre-flop, i would fold the Q7 suited for one bet. It is a weak hand that looks stronger than it is becasue its suited. Would you have played a Q7 offsuit? I wouldn't. The fact that its suited only helps it out by a very small amount. Also, even when you do make a flush, you will still lose sometimes to a bigger flush. Q7 suited is no different than a 27 suited. They're both garbage and are not worth 1 bet. I would have again folded to two more bets cold when it was capped pre-flop. On the flop i would have check-folded. At that point you are definately beaten by someone and although you may improve, so may everyone else. You may hit your queen only to look at a KQoffsuit or hit your trip 7 only to look at an A7 suited. So NONE of your outs garantee a winning hand. And to make matters even worse, if the UTG player check raises, you may be facing another 2 bets. You should never chase a hand unless it figures to be the best hand when you make it. This is not the case here. On the turn, there is still no reason to be in the hand. You've already spent 5 small bets to see the turn with second pair-medium kicker (!). You have not improved on your flop holding and although there are some good pot odds none of your outs make a great hand. I think you really overplayed this hand. Mark | ||
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| Re: one more hand, mongi, 7. Aug 2003 12:29 | ||
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| I agree I should never have been in this hand in the first place, however, I think calling on the flop getting 23-1 pot odds was a good enough overlay even with the possibility of a check raise. I also believe I should have called on the turn. I only overplayed preflop. | ||
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| Re: one more hand, Jav, 7. Aug 2003 13:14 | ||
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| Which illustrates the point about how making one mistake pre-flop can cost you lots of money. | ||
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| Re: one more hand, Mark, 7. Aug 2003 14:04 | ||
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| on 7. Aug 2003 12:29 mongi wrote: > I agree I should never have been in this hand in the first place, however, I think calling > on the flop getting 23-1 pot odds was a good enough overlay even with the possibility of a > check raise. I also believe I should have called on the turn. I only overplayed preflop. Sure you are getting 23:1 pot odds, but to what? What are your outs? 7s and Qs, which aren't (normally ) clean. You may hit one, only to lose alot more money. Also, there will probably be redraws out against you on the turn in addition to the str8 and flush draws that are already present. These conditions devalue your hand greatly even when you do hit something. If you do actually hit an out on the turn, you will probably have to pay at least on big bet on each round, lowering your effective odds to around 9:1 (the amount you will pay to show down vs. the probable pot) Any heart, 10,9,8,5,4, or 3 on the turn may mean your drawing dead. Thats 27 cards. Also, if the turn makes another two flush, thats another 3 cards to beat you on the river. With the high # of callers, someone else may pair their King's kicker to make a bigger 2 pair. I've already shown how your outs may be counterfieted (by an KQ or bigger A7). There are so many ways to lose and no way you can pump the pot no matter what you hit on the turn. Your drawing thin-to-dead. Playing this hand is not consistant with the tight-aggressive poker which all pros advocate. While the high pot odds make this hand look profitable, there are very few scenarios where you will come out a winner. These types of hands will cause large swings in your bankroll, and will normally be negative. The facts are, you have - middle pair - a weak kicker (because of the K) - a flush AND str8 draw out against you - and only two cards to come. I would fold in this situation. mark | ||
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| Re: one more hand, LEEBOG, 8. Aug 2003 05:28 | ||
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| Obviously, u shoulda been gone b4 the flop, but once ur in the hand, u might as well try and play it to win. Anyway, If you were sure the raiser had nothing, u should of either a) check raise him on the flop, if he re-raises and tight player calls, then 100% he has the king or better, then you know where u stand or b) bet into him seeing what the raiser will do, if he raises then you also find out what the tight player had. I dont think check raising the raiser on the turn woulda knocked the tight player with the K out, 2c came on the turn, what does he put u on 2 pair? he has the K, and his 1st bet is already in, its not like its 16 cold to him. I dont think u couldve won this pot...IMO. | ||
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| Re: one more hand, 4 POKER, 7. Aug 2003 13:29 | ||
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| Okay, you were in the BB and it cost you one bet more to see the flop with a suited Q. But you must keep in mind that once the pot gets raised and then re-raised, your Q-7 suited should be in the muck before the flop. One call maybe, (try to hit something REALLY strong on the flop), but to call any more than that one extra bet is a bad call IMO. Keep in mind mongi, there was a tight/solid limper and a "rock" who was calling all of these raises, so even if you do pay all those bets to see the flop, you can't be sure enough about your own hand unless you flop a monster. If a Q should show up, how good would you really feel about having top pair say with a bad kicker? With that many players involved and given the fact that you were up against a whole slew of different types of players, ie, a rock, a solid type, a maniac, etc.....there's no way you could possibly know where you stand with your own hand unless you flop something so incredibly strong, that it would make it worthwhile for you to even be in this hand. Calling all those raises pre-flop with Q-7 is a mistake and being suited won't help much unless you flop the flush right off the bat and no more suits to the flop come up as well,....not to mention, how would you ever know if your own flush was good unless both the Ace and the King came up with another card all matching the suits that you were holding? Pretty slim odds there if you ask me. Flopping a pair of sevens with two very dangerous overcards is a very bad flop for you, and even if you decided to call all those raises preflop, the flop you *did* get was awful. Muck, muck, muck. Whenever you enter a pot you want to be able to take some kind of control during the hand, and after the flop comes up, or at least have a really good draw to something that you *know* will have a great chance of winning the pot if you hit it. That's why you put money into the pot in the first place. And if and when you don't flop something really good to continue on with, you're supposed to throw your hand away. This was not a heads up thing here.....this was a multi-way pot with some solid players in the pot, and you have to know when to fold hands like Q-7 suited and wait for a much better spot. And what spot that is, I don't know.....I'm not a fan of Q-7, even suited. It's a piece of cheese.....especially in limit poker, and especially against multiple opponents. The next time you get that hand in the BB, and face one raise, do what you think is best, and if that means calling, than make sure, A), you don't commit to putting any more pre-flop bets in with it if it now gets back raised again, (like it did in your situation), and B), if you do play it and flop a 7 with two strong overcards out there.....you'll know when to muck it as well. The hand has nowhere to go the majority of the time so why play it? Pick your spots more carefully and correctly and your results will better, otherwise you're going to make catastrophic calls with marginal holdings and it'll be very hard for you to be on that winning end. The decisions that you chose to make pre-flop given the entire situation at hand are the most crucial ones of all, and knowing when to continue after the flop comes up is going to be a big factor in making you a winning player, (someone who knows when to continue and/or when to lay a hand down). Minimize on your potentially losing hands and maximize on the real good hands and flops and you'll see far better results. Hope this helps. 4 POKER | ||
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| Re: one more hand, grant pittman, 7. Aug 2003 15:10 | ||
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| Mongi this is an excellent hand to take a closer look at since it requires you to consider what your opponents are holding as well as considering some math calculations at several stages during the play of the hand. The fact that you are aware of these concepts in poker is a good sign that your game is progressing. So your account of the hand has 5 players seeing the flop for $16 plus $2 dead from the small blind making the pot $82 total before the flop. Now if we can just switch our thoughts to what your opponents may hold . I am always cautious when an utg solid player limps and then reraises the field outta position in a hand before the flop. So often you will find that you are up against AA,KK or AK,KQ suited. In this case the utg player check folded so he didnt but you needed to consider that possibility when you called after the flop of K-6-7 with two hearts. Now the loose player bets into the field and two other players call and the action is on you. Since the pot now contains $94 ($82 preflop plus $12 bet on the flop) you are getting nearly 24-1 on your money and it is an easy call. Just be aware of the utg player and how he played his hand. His fold is a pleasant development in this hand for you. Now the turn card is an offsuit 2. The loose player bets , one player folds and the tight player calls and its your turn to act with nobody behind you who can raise. You chose to fold. I HATE your decision here. I know you believe the tight player holds a king and the loose player could have anything but it just doesnt matter here!!!! Looking at the math now we see that the pot contains $110 ($94 after the flop plus $16 bet on the turn) and it is an $8 bet to you. You are getting almost 14-1 on your call and you may have as many as 5 cards to hit to win(two 7's plus 3 queens). It is possible that the queen of hearts makes a flush for someone or more critical would be one of your opponents holding KQ but quite simply this pot is laying you a good enough price to take that chance. A fold at this stage is a bad play. You mentioned that you considered raising at this stage of the hand hoping the tight player would fold a king. My thoughts about that play is that it is poor also. If the player holds a king he wont fold simply because the pot is way too big at this point.In addition the loose player doesnt have to have nothing here. If he holds a big hand you will likely have to pay him off if he reraises you given his reputation and that will cost you quite a bit of $$$$$$$$ to find out that loose man has a real hand this time. As it turned out you were beat when you folded and you wouldnt have won the pot but you still made an error in folding the turn given the scenario. On a more positive note you did consider the math and what your opponents held and this is a great start to improving your overall poker game!!!! GRANT PITTMAN | ||
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| Question back to grant, mkpoker, 7. Aug 2003 15:54 | ||
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| First, welcome to the forum. Roy's right--that was a great post. We seem to have arrived at the general consensus that Mongi made two errors in this hand 1) calling when he should have folded pre-flop and 2) folding when he should have called post-flop. Your post mostly addressed the latter point. I'm curious if you agree on the former. Should you call a raise from the BB with Q7s, even with multiple callers? | ||
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| Re: Question back to grant, Roy Cooke, 7. Aug 2003 16:02 | ||
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| I'm going to butt in on this one.....I'm sure Grant will give you his opinion later. I will call with a hand like this if there are a lot of callers and I think they play poorly...........The value of the combination of those factors will be a seat of the pants judgment in every situational case. Both things occur in varying degrees and the resulting judgment is based on a weighting of both factors. Roy Cooke on 7. Aug 2003 15:54 mkpoker wrote: > First, welcome to the forum. Roy's right--that was a great post. We seem to have arrived > at the general consensus that Mongi made two errors in this hand 1) calling when he should > have folded pre-flop and 2) folding when he should have called post-flop. > > Your post mostly addressed the latter point. I'm curious if you agree on the former. > Should you call a raise from the BB with Q7s, even with multiple callers? | ||
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| Re: Question back to grant, Easy E, 7. Aug 2003 19:04 | ||
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| Roy, I would think that in THIS situation, with the solid UTG and the loose aggressive there to push things down the road, that an initial fold rather than a call is the preferred choice here, especially facing a raise already. Or am I playing my blind too tightly? | ||
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| Re: Question back to grant, Roy Cooke, 7. Aug 2003 21:03 | ||
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| I think in the situation he describes the decision is very close.....If you play your hands well it is probably a good call....If you struggle to make the right decision after the flop it is probably better to fold! Roy Cooke on 7. Aug 2003 19:04 Easy E wrote: > Roy, I would think that in THIS situation, with the solid UTG and the loose aggressive there to push > things down the road, that an initial fold rather than a call is the preferred choice here, > especially facing a raise already. > > Or am I playing my blind too tightly? | ||
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| Re: Question back to grant, Mark, 7. Aug 2003 19:23 | ||
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| Roy, How often would you play a Q7 suited for a raise with a large field? I can see playing it if you can run over the entire field, then i would play everything as long as there were only a few players in the pot. But with 5 players in ahead of you (with a few calling stations likely at $4-8), Q7 would be dominated by so many hands, that i don't see how it could be played profitably. Am i missing something here, maybe a super secret from the pros, or is this a variance play of some sort that you are talking about? I could understand playing it shorthanded when you can outplay your opponents, but not like this. What about when it gets capped? Is there ever a reason to continue playing it in THIS situation. mark | ||
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| Re: Question back to grant, grant pittman, 7. Aug 2003 20:25 | ||
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| mkpoker dont get caught up trying to make cut and dry rules in poker. It DOESNT work. Your best bet is to try to understand the situation that is currently facing you and make your decisions based on the information you have to work with (often times you have little info to go on). In this hand,I believe our player had q,7 spades and had called a raise from a loose raising player. The q,7 hand called from the BB and was getting 9-1 on his call. The hand is weak but i like the price you are getting if you hit this hand. This pot is likely going to be a good one and the unique nature of your hand will make it very unlikely that you will have to put in a lot of money after the flop unless you hit your hand. In this hand the call from the BB for the first raise is an easy one and the correct play. Now it gets raised by a limper and reraised by the loose player and the 2 players between the BB call. The BB is getting 17-2 on his call here knowing another call will make it 9-1. I agree the q,7 looks kinda questionable here but you cant forget that the pot is laying you a great price currently and is sure to get bigger. I make the call before the flop without hesitation and play the hand with hopes of making a flush of course but as we have seen there are other potential ways to win with this hand. If you look at the situation another way, you can see that you are getting the exact same price calling the second raise as you were calling the first raise and you are now possibly better advised about the holdings of your opponents(in this case especially the solid player who limp reraised preflop) GRANT PITTMAN | ||
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| Re: Question back to grant, Roy Cooke, 7. Aug 2003 21:01 | ||
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| Another concept that comes into play is that your expectation loss on folding after calling the first raise is -$8....If you call the raise is your expectation loss over -$8....You would have to make very poor decisions for that to be the case! Roy Cooke 7. Aug 2003 20:25 grant pittman wrote: > mkpoker dont get caught up trying to make cut and dry rules in poker. It DOESNT work. Your best > bet is to try to understand the situation that is currently facing you and make your decisions > based on the information you have to work with (often times you have little info to go on). In > this hand,I believe our player had q,7 spades and had called a raise from a loose raising > player. The q,7 hand called from the BB and was getting 9-1 on his call. The hand is weak but i > like the price you are getting if you hit this hand. This pot is likely going to be a good one > and the unique nature of your hand will make it very unlikely that you will have to put in a > lot of money after the flop unless you hit your hand. In this hand the call from the BB for the > first raise is an easy one and the correct play. Now it gets raised by a limper and reraised by > the loose player and the 2 players between the BB call. The BB is getting 17-2 on his call here > knowing another call will make it 9-1. I agree the q,7 looks kinda questionable here but you > cant forget that the pot is laying you a great price currently and is sure to get bigger. I > make the call before the flop without hesitation and play the hand with hopes of making a flush > of course but as we have seen there are other potential ways to win with this hand. If you look > at the situation another way, you can see that you are getting the exact same price calling the > second raise as you were calling the first raise and you are now possibly better advised about > the holdings of your opponents(in this case especially the solid player who limp reraised > preflop) GRANT PITTMAN | ||
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| A very interesting thread, mkpoker, 7. Aug 2003 21:17 | ||
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| I must say this is a very interesting discussion. Candidly, I'm suprised--downright stunned--that Roy and Grant so strongly advocate the pre-flop calls in this situation. I fully understand their reasoning about the great odds from the pot combined with the knowledge that the table was looser than average. But still....Q7s is a decidedly average starting hand...calling to 4 bets?!? Prior to reading this discussion, it would have been an automatic fold for me, even against the most maniacal maniac. I'll definitely remember this debate next time I get raised from the BB. Not saying I'll call, but I'll think about it a little longer. Thanks for the very interesting comments. | ||
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| Re: A very interesting thread, grant pittman, 7. Aug 2003 22:16 | ||
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| mkpoker remember that this hand played out in a rather unique fashion. The preflop betting took place in such a manner that there were two separate decisions to make for the BB and they both required a calculation of the pot with consideration to how big the reward would be for hitting this hand. It is not complete enough to say that calling with q,7 for 4 bets preflop is proper or not. In fact i seldom have to consider any of my decisions when facing Q,7 suited since many many more times than not the hand belongs in the muck. I hope this has been a little clearer for you because this is an excellent example of a poker situation that you wont find explained in any poker literature yet it is correct . GRANT PITTMAN | ||
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| Re: A very interesting thread, shorn, 8. Aug 2003 04:58 | ||
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| I think one other thing to consider is that Q7s is a hand to be played by very experienced or pro players who know how and when to get away from a hand at any moment. For the average player, even in this situation, it is a huge long-term money sucker. I for one don't consider my self good enough to deviate this much from recommended pre-flop strategy as I feel that for me, considering my strengths and weaknesses, iit is a -EV play. For Roy and Grant, different story. | ||
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| Re: A very interesting thread, stdioh, 8. Aug 2003 15:24 | ||
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| I can see defending on the BB with Q7s in lots of situations, but I think that here, it was a bit fishy. With the call from UTG from a solid player, you're looking at your queen being no good at all if you hit it. You almost have odds to just play looking for 2 pair or a flush draw, but the few times that you get there and are no good with the flush really affect things EV wise. I'd say that it would be an ok call on the BB if there were 1 more player in the hand and if the solid player UTG had folded (so another one to replace him too). | ||
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| Re: A very interesting thread, Mark, 8. Aug 2003 10:53 | ||
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| I'm with you mk, i wouldn't have called with that trash. I still don't see how calling is profitable, its a no pair, no straight, weak flush hand. I must be missing something or am slow. Effectively, the hand is no better than a Q2suited, and not much better than a 72suited. Maybe Roy and Grant are capable of playing these hands too, but I lose with them. Mark | ||
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| Re: Question back to grant, Barry T, 8. Aug 2003 05:13 | ||
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| Hi. Allow me to be the first to disagree with Grant on UPF. But first, I welcome Grant to the forum. He is in fact one of the finest limit players I have ever had the displeasure to play against :-). And in reality, he is also very well mannered at the table. And I fear that in disagreeing, I may just be showingup how much I still have to learn. But... In order for pot odds to make sense, you need to look at the numerator and the denonimator of the fraction. Yes, I see the odds you are getting to make the first (and the second) preflop call. And I understand Roy's point that the better you play, and poorer they play, the better your chances. And I think I play good. But the question really is, will I make money callling here (or, more technically, are my chances of winning greater than the odds the pot is laying). I have no proof, but I vote no. There is little question that to win here, you weill need to hit your hand twice. One of the problems with Q7s is that it can almost never make the nut hand. You do not want to flop a 7 with a Q kicker, you do not want to flop a Q with a 7 kicker, and you do not want to be putting in a lot of bets in the hope of drawing to a Q-high flush. I muck pre-flop either time in te situation described. Post flop, I like Grant's points much better, since you getting a huge price (part of which you have already put up yourself, but that no longer matters). Were it not for the fact that I was last to act, I would muck this hand later also. I really dislike potentially drawing dead, and having impure outs. In spite of that, I guess I would be forced to call along for the price knowing I could not be raised. BarryT | ||
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| Re: Question back to grant, shorn, 8. Aug 2003 05:48 | ||
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| I agree with you Barry. Nothing against Grant...he is clearly (from what I have heard and read) a world class limit player (Roy too for that matter), but I muck this hand preflop for the same reasons. Potentially, I call the first raise with 5 others in, but not the cap when it gets back to me. Yes, the actual $$ odds might be there, but with me needing to hit my hand at least twice (and potentially three times), the % chance of me winning, particularly against the types of players described (solid UTG, 1 rock, 1 loose player, and a button cold caller twice) is less than 10% and therefore a fold. As you point out, with the exception of a QQ7 or AKx spades flop, you can' make the nuts with this hand. And even if you do, you are likely subject to being outdrawn by another player later in the hand. This all adds up to a muck pre-flop for me. | ||
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| Re: Question back to grant, ezcheese, 8. Aug 2003 10:14 | ||
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| You have a VERY solid UTG player who re-raised 2 bets... how can you be sure he isn't on AKs? what about any of the other players... AKs... AQs... these are all hands that can be played by the players you are describing but don't seem to be discussed... with pre-flop betting the way it was I would put someone on AQs or better, which means you wouldn't even be drawing to the nuts if you hit the flush, which is something you'd rather hit than a Q w/ 7 kicker or 7 w/ queen kicker. Oh yeah, What exactly is a player described as a rock? | ||
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| Re: Question back to grant, stdioh, 8. Aug 2003 15:28 | ||
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| I really like that term "impure outs" ... I don't think I've heard that one before, but I do plan to steal it. Sounds so nazi-ish and imposing. | ||
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| Re: one more hand, stdioh, 8. Aug 2003 15:17 | ||
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| You woudln't even have to think about the latter streets here if you had folded this hand preflop, as I would have. You get yourself into a lot of marginal situations with a hand like that and you really don't want to be there. I'm thinking of Rolf Slotboom's talk of compounding errors in PL Omaha and it's the same thing here though not as extreme. You've got yourself roped in with middle pair and a lousy kicker so even if you do hit your kicker it is no guarantee that you will be good. With all that action preflop you could have an opponent sitting on KQ juicing you very badly. | ||
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