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Server Time: 12/1/2008 8:09:04 PM PACIFIC |
 Bashing the champ?, fourstar2000, 6. Aug 2003 13:30 | ||
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| I understand that its normal to critique the guy who won the whole thing, but it seems odd to me that everyone is on Moneymaker's case about the WSOP. Granted, he's technically not a professional, but from what I've seen in the coverage, he doesn't seem to be a lucky amateur either. I could see how people would have a problem with Varkonyi from the year before (keeps playing Q-10, keeps hitting flops, gets aces vs jacks vs tens when it goes three-handed), but Moneymaker really seems to have played well. -He played the aces well versus Lederer. -He sniffed out Darden's bluff when he had pocket 3s and raised him on the turn. -He put Chan all-in after Chan check-raised him on the flop (granted, he was way ahead anyways). -He put all his money in against Dutch Boyd because he thought he had the best hand, even though it was a weak hand -He milked at least 200K from Sammy Farha with his AQ It always seems like he has a good idea of where he stands in a hand. The obvious exception is the Brenes hand, but the guy has to be allowed one mistake, doesn't he? Besides, all his chips weren't at risk in the hand. It made me sick to see the 8 on the turn, but I don't think he won the championship just because he was lucky on that hand. The criticism about his last hand with Ivey makes me scratch my head too. Imagine you're dealt AQ, no one has opened, and you're the chip leader. You raise, right? You get two callers and the flop comes Q6Q. You bet 70K, which might trap a KQ or QJ (or in this case, a 99). Seems reasonable. You get one caller. Turn is a seemingly non-threatening 9. You bet 200K, which is about half your opponent's stack, putting him to the test. Who would put their opponent on 99? That would really be a read. Your opponent goes all-in, you have to call right? My point is that I didn't see him do anything different from what a solid poker player would do in that situation. As for Moneymaker being lucky in the hand, remember that Ivey had only the 2nd best hand pre-flop and was 3rd after the flop! I really feel like a lot of other players shown have made some very bad plays, but haven't been ripped for it. Brian Watkins seemed to always be chasing. Amir Vahedi goes all-in against the chip leader with a flush draw? Olof Thorson has a pre-flop raise called with KK, then goes all-in when an ace flops? Dutch Boyd goes all-in with second pair, decent kicker? Sammy Farha becomes a calling station with top pair, so-so kicker? I was expecting Moneymaker to be another Varkonyi, but the more I watch, the more I think he earned his victory. Just wanted to give the guy a little credit. | ||
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| Re: Bashing the champ?, Guru, 6. Aug 2003 14:45 | ||
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| I'll give him definite credit for the hand he put Chan all-in. He played that well. I haven't seen anyone criticizing his play against Ivey, though. In that same situation, I don't know of anyone who wouldn't have made that call. The play with the eights was marginal at best. The 3's was just dumb, IMO. Nearly every card is an overcard. It didn't matter what Dutch held, if he had hit any part of the flop turn, or river, he would have won. It was a miracle that Chris actually got runner, runner to make the straight. Chris believes too much in small pairs and had way more than his share of luck. | ||
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| Re: Bashing the champ?, noiseboy, 6. Aug 2003 15:11 | ||
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| You wrote: "It was a miracle that Chris actually got runner, runner to make the straight." He didn't even need to make a straight, he just needed two cards that didn't pair his opponent. I'm not sure how he knew that Dutch Boyd had two overcards, or if it was just a guess; however, he knew that if he was right that he was the favorite. Before moneymaker saw Boyd's hand, he said "low cards!" which tells me that he did in fact think that he had a read on Boyd. | ||
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| Re: Bashing the champ?, Guru, 6. Aug 2003 16:16 | ||
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| I know that he didn't need the straight. I was just pointing out that those were the miracle draws he kept pulling out of his ass the whole way. He bets eights against aces for a large portion of his stack and gets the eight. After Phil Ivey had the boat, he pulled out the ace he needed to win that one. I'm also not wholly convinced that Moneymaker displayed great reading skills, either. Boyd went all-in. It doesn't take a genius to figure he has some paint. Also, Chris did have a three straight with his pair and needed low cards to possibly fill that in (which he did), so his statement asking for low cards had just as much bearing on his hand improving than on Boyd's not improving. Everyone pulls that quote out and assumes that he said that because he necessarily read Boyd so well, but the low cards were for him. If you pay attention to all the shows, you'll notice every time he gets in an all-in showdown with another player, he always stands up and asks the dealer to give him the cards he needs. That quote is just another case of that. | ||
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| Re: Bashing the champ?, Jav, 6. Aug 2003 15:04 | ||
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| I agree that he's getting more than his share of criticism, but I think that it is also part of the WSOP being much more televised this year. I know last year all I saw was the final table play (and only some of it at that). While this year we are seeing a lot more hands. It's still not enough to really know what's went on if you weren't there, but it's enough for us to form opinions (valid or not). I don't care who you are, you have to be very good AND get a lot of lucky breaks to win a tournament with that many entries. | ||
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| Re: Bashing the champ?, tpir90036, 6. Aug 2003 23:16 | ||
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| i was bashing dutch boyd way more than him. the "chip tricks make people think you know what you are doing" followed by "i don't want people to think i know what i am doing" followed by "everyone thinks they know what they are doing but actually don't" (except him of course). plus his 1-out quads catch on an earlier episode, his staring down of moneymaker like he had somehow become a reading master and a bunch of other bad plays that he made. granted, he might have made some really good ones that weren't televised. but that guy annoyed me way more than moneymaker. | ||
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| Re: Bashing the champ?, chris nelson, 6. Aug 2003 23:52 | ||
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| I agree that the play against Darden and Lederer was good but the play against Chan is simply a no-brainer. Chan was shorstacked and MM's hand was very easy to play. I think the rest of the plays I watched were not very good for very specific reasons. From what I have noticed, Brenes likes to get his chips all in so that doesn't make him a candidate for a laydown. MM probably just thought his hand was good and ended up need to get lucky. The pocket 3's though were not wise. Boyd had him covered in chips and neither player were shortstacked by any means. They both made the mistake of tangling w/ a stack that can destroy you. As for his read, I do believe that it looked like overcards. One thing to consider though is that he was already in the money and had never played for that kind of cash before. I read that he was going to try to sell seat to payoff his credit cards. I feel that in his head, he already had enough winnings if he lost so the risk was small. He also said that when he got to the final table, he thought Ivey would win. IMO that confirms my idea. He had no illusions of winnings. As for the hand against Ivey, I do believe he misplayed the flop. 60k preflop raise called in 3 spots, roughly 200k in the pot and then underbet the pot w 70k. Bad. Ivey is the guy he does want to be in the pot w. He was the toughest player at the table. He let Ivey in cheap and then got beat on the turn only to have to get lucky on the river. Bad poker. What would Ivey be calling him on the flop. Now, a 200k bet on the turn, a little late but what if Ivey had 66 in the hole. Iveys too dangerous to tangle w like that. My point is that I don't think MM even considered what Ivey might call w. If he didn't draw out on Ivey, I don't think anyone would say he played it right nor could he handle Ivey w 1000000 in chips Thank You. Chris | ||
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| Re: Bashing the champ?, shorn, 7. Aug 2003 05:24 | ||
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| Chris- Spot on on every controversial MM play in my opinion. The 33 hand was the one I couldn't understand most. Boyd could have had A9s or A5s for that matter. And as you point out, they were both bigger than average stacks. He should know to not push a marginal holding (even at 3-1 assuming his read was correct) that late when he probably could have blinded off and made the final 9. I can forgive MM for underbetting against Ivey; I would be shitting my pants against him too. Although at that point in the game he wasn't a rook anymore. I think the play was more of a trap since he thought he was way ahead. Bad play with 200k already in there, but I can jsutify it more than the other hand. Bottom line: he has made some plays that LOOK great because they have worked out. I think some people are giving him far too much credit for situations in which he has turned out to be lucky. And who are we kidding...there is no way ANYONE can win any tournament without being the luckiest player in the room over the course of the tourny. Every player is forced at one point or another to make marginal (or even negative) EV decisions...whoever gets the lucky cards will win. Being good/great also helps, but the luck factor, even in a five day event, plays a major major role in my opinion. Steve | ||
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| Re: Bashing the champ?, ezcheese, 7. Aug 2003 10:16 | ||
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| Ok... I don't care who you are, you shouldn't go all-in on a pair of 3's (with the exception of being a huge chip leader against a very small stack)... it's just bad poker. | ||
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| Re: Bashing the champ?, noiseboy, 7. Aug 2003 10:57 | ||
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| If you are 99% sure your opponent is bluffing than you should definitely call. Boyd gave his hand away when he was doing the "stare him down" thing. That's straight outta Caro's book of tells filed under "Strong when Weak." I thought the call was amazing and I was greatly impressed that he had the cahones to go with his read for all his chips. | ||
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| Re: Bashing the champ?, shorn, 7. Aug 2003 11:38 | ||
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| I disagree. Whether or not your read was correct 100%, there was no reason to call all of your chips with such a weak holding. If you lose this pot, you are out of the tournament and in money terms with the size of your stack, that is a major error. As I stated, I think MM could have blinded off and made the final 9 which from the position he wuld have busted is equal to about $70k in REAL money. Not worth the risk in my opinion. Yes, I am conservative. But, I would have waited for a spot where I had better than third pair to take the chance that my read was correct based on something I read in Mike Caro's book. I think MM was pretty confident he was ahead of Humberto too, and you saw what that meant. | ||
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| Re: Bashing the champ?, ezcheese, 7. Aug 2003 11:43 | ||
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| if any of his opponents overcards fall, MM loses... that simple... if he actually did have a read then I give him credit for having the balls to play it... if he didn't have a read then he is an idiot because he might be the worst hand to a Ax or whatever if the x pairs. | ||
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| Re: Bashing the champ?, Roy Cooke, 7. Aug 2003 11:31 | ||
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| I think anytime someone does something that is successful, a certain group of people are going to put them down in an effort to feel better about themselves! Roy Cooke 'on 6. Aug 2003 13:30 fourstar2000 wrote: > I understand that its normal to critique the guy who won the whole thing, but it > seems odd to me that everyone is on Moneymaker's case about the WSOP. Granted, > he's technically not a professional, but from what I've seen in the coverage, he > doesn't seem to be a lucky amateur either. I could see how people would have a > problem with Varkonyi from the year before (keeps playing Q-10, keeps hitting > flops, gets aces vs jacks vs tens when it goes three-handed), but Moneymaker > really seems to have played well. > > -He played the aces well versus Lederer. > -He sniffed out Darden's bluff when he had pocket 3s and raised him on the > turn. > -He put Chan all-in after Chan check-raised him on the flop (granted, he was > way ahead anyways). > -He put all his money in against Dutch Boyd because he thought he had the best > hand, even though it was a weak hand > -He milked at least 200K from Sammy Farha with his AQ > > It always seems like he has a good idea of where he stands in a hand. The > obvious exception is the Brenes hand, but the guy has to be allowed one mistake, > doesn't he? Besides, all his chips weren't at risk in the hand. It made me > sick to see the 8 on the turn, but I don't think he won the championship just > because he was lucky on that hand. > > The criticism about his last hand with Ivey makes me scratch my head too. > Imagine you're dealt AQ, no one has opened, and you're the chip leader. You > raise, right? You get two callers and the flop comes Q6Q. You bet 70K, which > might trap a KQ or QJ (or in this case, a 99). Seems reasonable. You get one > caller. Turn is a seemingly non-threatening 9. You bet 200K, which is about > half your opponent's stack, putting him to the test. Who would put their > opponent on 99? That would really be a read. Your opponent goes all-in, you > have to call right? My point is that I didn't see him do anything different > from what a solid poker player would do in that situation. As for Moneymaker > being lucky in the hand, remember that Ivey had only the 2nd best hand pre-flop > and was 3rd after the flop! > > I really feel like a lot of other players shown have made some very bad plays, > but haven't been ripped for it. Brian Watkins seemed to always be chasing. > Amir Vahedi goes all-in against the chip leader with a flush draw? Olof Thorson > has a pre-flop raise called with KK, then goes all-in when an ace flops? Dutch > Boyd goes all-in with second pair, decent kicker? Sammy Farha becomes a calling > station with top pair, so-so kicker? > > I was expecting Moneymaker to be another Varkonyi, but the more I watch, the > more I think he earned his victory. Just wanted to give the guy a little > credit. | ||
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| Re: Bashing the champ?, shorn, 7. Aug 2003 11:40 | ||
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| I think that is a bit unfair Roy. A lot of the points that have been brought up are backed by legitimate poker strategy/theory. To claim that we are all a bunch of whiners to just feel better about ourselves is BS. | ||
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| Re: Bashing the champ?, ezcheese, 7. Aug 2003 11:45 | ||
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| I do feel that if Phil Hellmuth calls with 33 everyone says... "Phil read that guy like a book" or sumthing, and that when MM does it everyone says "bad call"... but even if Phil Hellmuth did it, calling all-in with 33 is stupid, and this thread would be bashing any player who won if they made calls like this. | ||
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| Re: Bashing the champ?, Roy Cooke, 7. Aug 2003 12:11 | ||
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| Hi Shorn I think what I said is true...no offense intended to anyone.....I think it is something hardwired into human nature.........That said, just because someone won the WSOP does not make him a great player....or necessarily mean he played professional quality poker......That said, you have to give the guy credit for holding up and having the guts he showed. Roy Cooke on 7. Aug 2003 11:40 shorn wrote: > I think that is a bit unfair Roy. A lot of the points that have been brought up are > backed by legitimate poker strategy/theory. To claim that we are all a bunch of whiners > to just feel better about ourselves is BS. | ||
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| Re: Bashing the champ?, Big_Slick, 7. Aug 2003 20:31 | ||
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| This is a hand where if you lose, you look like an idiot. If you win, you look like a genius. | ||
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| Re: Bashing the champ?, spk, 7. Aug 2003 14:14 | ||
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| excellent post by fourstar - - if lederer or helmuth or ivey call with 33 with a king on the board they are gods. if moneymaker or money0800 (pokerstart name) calls he is lucky.... | ||
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| Re: Bashing the champ?, Styx, 7. Aug 2003 21:11 | ||
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| That's a yes and no type of thing. Sure last year Varchoni did always seem to catch the best cards(AA alot), the kind that no one would lay down. But Moneymaker also had long rushes where he caught poket pairs or A*. The thing that makes me question his skill level ( I am a novice by the way) are the bad calls he made. for one when he busted ivey, sure he had trips and the turn was a 9, but although phil is a very aggressive player it was a ten handed game, and nine people were going to the final. Once againg Phil is very aggressive, but you have to imagine that a player with his experience would not risk his tournament trying to bully a novice that's why although moneymaker won, by catching a miracle on the river it was a bad call given the situation(Phil was not the shortstack, Phil put in all of his chips...). Another bad call that comes to mind was the one against Boyd, who like Ivey tended to be aggressive. However to put your whole tournament on the line with 33, when there were atleast two overcards on the flop seems to me like a bad call even if you think the other player didnt catch anything on the flop. I'll give it to him he is the champ but he did get very lucky catching miracles on the river throughout the espn coverage, but hey thats the game of poker. | ||
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| Re: Bashing the champ?, Schuster, 8. Aug 2003 00:19 | ||
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| The only hand that Phil Ivey could have had that beat him at that point was either 99 or 66. Any pro in the world would make the call he made against Phil, top trips with top kicker is a not a hand you want to lay down. Lee | ||
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| Re: Bashing the champ?, Styx, 8. Aug 2003 12:02 | ||
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| on 8. Aug 2003 00:19 Schuster wrote: > The only hand that Phil Ivey could have had that beat him at that point was either 99 or > 66. Any pro in the world would make the call he made against Phil, top trips with top > kicker is a not a hand you want to lay down. Yeah, but just consider the situation, someone like phil going all in one seat away without being on the shortstack should make you think twice. trips or not | ||
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