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Horrible Losing Streak, mroban, 6. Aug 2003 09:26
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So after months and months of building up my bankroll, I have taken a $300 hit in the past week. I am really despondent as my play has been fairly solid (a few tilt hands, but I have recognized a tilt each time and have always righted the ship after one such bad hand).

Essentially, I have been playing solid starting hands, betting when hitting my flops, folding when not. Problem is, my good hands during this streak have almost uniformly been sucked out on. Additionally, I just cannot connect on a flop. If I raise KK preflop from mid position, I always get at least 2 callers behind me and a family pot. Then, the flop has come AT9 or something equally ominous with a flush draw. I end up either raising and throwing my hand away when I get 4 callers or check and fold when there is a raise with a caller and then it comes back to me.

AK has cost me a bundle as has TT, JJ (I have run into a set more times than I can imagine).

My final hand last night, I hadn't played a hand in over an hour, was down about $25 on the night over a three hour period (won a few hands, but was getting slowly sucked dry by blinds and a few unfortunate suckouts). I was dealt AJ in a mid/late position. Everyone folded to me, I raised just really trying to steal the hand and everyone folded to the BB who reraised me.

I am thinking I am obviously dead here and should fold, but I call one more bet hoping for KK or KQ. I might add, the raiser had been raising almost every playable hand imaginable, including hands like A8s, JTs, etc. So while instinctually I felt I should fold, my "powers of observation" let me know this guy had weak raising standards.

So finally, I connect with the flop and get an A (but no J). Of course I am dead. My kicker cannot possibly be good right? He checks, I bet (like a moron) and he flat calls me. Okay. He checks on the turn (a blank), I bet, he calls. The river is a blank, he bets, I call and he shows AK.

He played the hand well i think because I would have folded had he re-raised me on the flop. So kudos, he outplayed me.

But anyway, I am just venting and looking for sympathy. I would estimate that about 15% of my losses have come from bad play. The rest is bad luck. I know the drill. Just felt like venting.

I haven't had a good night sleep in days.

Perhaps giving up ring games for a few weeks would do me some good. I will stick to Sit and gos and tourneys for my poker fixes.

Really dispiriting though. Do any pros go through stretches like this?
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Re: Horrible Losing Streak, Wren, 6. Aug 2003 09:56
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Duuuuude....you've been UB'd.
I COMPLETELY and TOTALLY sympathize. This weekend was the icing on the cake, for me. Made the (questionable) decision to sit at 3 $.5-1 tables at once, and proceeded to lose 50 BBs in about a half hour. Yup - no chit. I got VERY tilty and emotional (ask stdioh) - had the urge to go on, play higher and "get it all back", but then I opted to do pretty much the opposite - said "FOOK UB!" and withdrew pretty much the entire contents of my online bankroll. It felt liberating.

Y'know what? I always feel sort of...nervous when I sit down at UB hold'em ring games. I just FEEL the bad beats coming on, my good starting hands not hitting, etc. etc. Even though limit HE ring games are generally what I'm best at, I have to decided to stop playing in them online, because I just don't feel confident that I'll do well. From now on, I'm sticking to sit n gos, the occasional multi-table tournament, and O8, and saving HE for Brantford.

on 6. Aug 2003 09:26 mroban wrote:
> So after months and months of building up my bankroll, I have taken a $300 hit
> in the past week. I am really despondent as my play has been fairly solid (a
> few tilt hands, but I have recognized a tilt each time and have always righted
> the ship after one such bad hand).
>
> Essentially, I have been playing solid starting hands, betting when hitting my
> flops, folding when not. Problem is, my good hands during this streak have
> almost uniformly been sucked out on. Additionally, I just cannot connect on a
> flop. If I raise KK preflop from mid position, I always get at least 2 callers
> behind me and a family pot. Then, the flop has come AT9 or something equally
> ominous with a flush draw. I end up either raising and throwing my hand away
> when I get 4 callers or check and fold when there is a raise with a caller and
> then it comes back to me.
>
> AK has cost me a bundle as has TT, JJ (I have run into a set more times than I
> can imagine).
>
> My final hand last night, I hadn't played a hand in over an hour, was down
> about $25 on the night over a three hour period (won a few hands, but was
> getting slowly sucked dry by blinds and a few unfortunate suckouts). I was
> dealt AJ in a mid/late position. Everyone folded to me, I raised just really
> trying to steal the hand and everyone folded to the BB who reraised me.
>
> I am thinking I am obviously dead here and should fold, but I call one more bet
> hoping for KK or KQ. I might add, the raiser had been raising almost every
> playable hand imaginable, including hands like A8s, JTs, etc. So while
> instinctually I felt I should fold, my "powers of observation" let me know this
> guy had weak raising standards.
>
> So finally, I connect with the flop and get an A (but no J). Of course I am
> dead. My kicker cannot possibly be good right? He checks, I bet (like a moron)
> and he flat calls me. Okay. He checks on the turn (a blank), I bet, he calls.
> The river is a blank, he bets, I call and he shows AK.
>
> He played the hand well i think because I would have folded had he re-raised me
> on the flop. So kudos, he outplayed me.
>
> But anyway, I am just venting and looking for sympathy. I would estimate that
> about 15% of my losses have come from bad play. The rest is bad luck. I know
> the drill. Just felt like venting.
>
> I haven't had a good night sleep in days.
>
> Perhaps giving up ring games for a few weeks would do me some good. I will
> stick to Sit and gos and tourneys for my poker fixes.
>
> Really dispiriting though. Do any pros go through stretches like this?
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Re: Horrible Losing Streak, Flatout_Mainiac, 6. Aug 2003 11:14
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mroban,

It is just part of the game. lost 200 BB in two days over the weekend exactly the same way you describe. When I got to the point that I was praying that I didn't get good cards, cause I knew that all the did was cost me more money, I knew I needed to step back a little.

Actually, a funny little thing happend during a Saturday night ring game. Myself and two other players were counting the number of times in a row our Big Slicks got cracked....we got to 9 until I won a little pot.

I took a little time away and analyzed some possible leaks and read a little HEFAP. I played last night and almost covered my weekend losses with better cards, a weaker table, and I think better play.

Good Luck
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Re: Horrible Losing Streak, mroban, 6. Aug 2003 11:43
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Flatout:

Hilarious. I had AK cracked so often, I decided that raising preflop with it was a fishy play (it isn't, but you get the idea).

Same reaction - fear of bad cards because you know its going to cost you money. You raise preflop with KK, get reraised and say "here we go again". Thinking you are against AA you actually get excited to see a K flop, only to also notice the 4 flush. You raise, get 3 callers and want to reach through the computer to kill someone (especially when the flush card hits on the turn or river). Then, knowing you are beat, you raise anyway get reraised and then throw away your KKK in disgust.

That pretty much describes the past week for me.

Thanks for the words. Listen, I know its just part of the game, but it feels good to vent and share the experience.
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Re: Horrible Losing Streak, mroban, 6. Aug 2003 11:39
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Wren:

You have no idea how great that is to hear :)

Seriously though, although we have had the same experience, I was winning consistently on UB.

Anyway, I agree...Pot Limit O8 ring games are great...I know I am either going to lose a small pot or win a big pot because I play conseratively and will only bet big when I have the nuts. Not sure that is the best way to play, but it works.

I am just getting creamed in LHE ring games with hands like KK against 93suited.

So yeah, I have been UB'd. Party Poker is worse.

Like you, I feel my best game is LHE. I know the game the best, the odds the best and (despite occasionally tilting when things aren't going my way) at least generally know when I should be folding and not re-raising out of spite.

Thanks for the sympathy. How long a drive is it from NYC to your card room?

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Re: Horrible Losing Streak, Wren, 6. Aug 2003 13:27
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Yeah, I've won quite a bit of money on UB myself (over $5000 last year, from an initial freeroll win of $10) but after getting a good taste of essentially tilt-free B&M poker, I really can't handle the tiltiness of online poker anymore.

Hmm....you're looking at 8 or 9 hours from NYC to Brantford, but hey - if you have a free weekend sometime soon, why don't you come up and give it a shot? The $5-10 there is golden.

on 6. Aug 2003 11:39 mroban wrote:
> Wren:
>
> You have no idea how great that is to hear :)
>
> Seriously though, although we have had the same experience, I was winning consistently on
> UB.
>
> Anyway, I agree...Pot Limit O8 ring games are great...I know I am either going to lose a
> small pot or win a big pot because I play conseratively and will only bet big when I have
> the nuts. Not sure that is the best way to play, but it works.
>
> I am just getting creamed in LHE ring games with hands like KK against 93suited.
>
> So yeah, I have been UB'd. Party Poker is worse.
>
> Like you, I feel my best game is LHE. I know the game the best, the odds the best and
> (despite occasionally tilting when things aren't going my way) at least generally know
> when I should be folding and not re-raising out of spite.
>
> Thanks for the sympathy. How long a drive is it from NYC to your card room?
>
>
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Re: Horrible Losing Streak, mroban, 6. Aug 2003 13:48
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Maybe a side trip from Toronto in September. That sounds like heaven.

I will be in Toronto during the first week of September. Lets plan something, perhaps for a Saturday Night.

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Re: Horrible Losing Streak, Wren, 6. Aug 2003 13:53
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Labour Day weekend we might be elsewhere (stdio thinks we're going to Atlantic City, but not sure about that).

If you come the week after (Saturday, Sept 6), I'm sure we could arrange for a Brantford trip. Let us know!

on 6. Aug 2003 13:48 mroban wrote:
> Maybe a side trip from Toronto in September. That sounds like heaven.
>
> I will be in Toronto during the first week of September. Lets plan something, perhaps for a
> Saturday Night.
>
>
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Re: Horrible Losing Streak, mroban, 6. Aug 2003 13:55
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It is the week following Labor Day. I might even buy you guys dinner first.
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Re: Horrible Losing Streak, Wren, 6. Aug 2003 13:59
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We could always roshambo (sp???) for dinner. stdio thinks he's "really good" at the game, whatever that means. I'm still of the camp that it's pretty fricking random :O)

on 6. Aug 2003 13:55 mroban wrote:
> It is the week following Labor Day. I might even buy you guys dinner first.
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Re: Horrible Losing Streak, mroban, 6. Aug 2003 14:01
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I don't even know what that is, but it sounds like fun (I think).

$5-10 in Canada is like $3-6 in American dollars too (woo hoo).
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Re: Horrible Losing Streak, Wren, 6. Aug 2003 15:00
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on 6. Aug 2003 14:01 mroban wrote:
> I don't even know what that is, but it sounds like fun (I think).
>

You might know it as "rock paper scissors".
Here! Get some practise:

http://www.essentially.net/rsp/index.jsp
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Re: Horrible Losing Streak, Jav, 6. Aug 2003 14:33
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Nonsense! I always throw rock, how random is that? I can't tell you how many times I've told my opponent that I'm going to throw rock every time; proceeded to do it, and still won. Some people are just distrustful.

When I used to play ultimate frisbee alot they used to do bear/cowboy/ninja to decide who got the disc first. It was basically a full bodied version of ro-sham-bo. You would stand back to back with your opponent, each walk five steps, then turn around and either do a bear (stand there with your hands in the air like an attacking bear), a ninja (karate stance), or a cowboy (two pistols with your hands). In that game bear mauled ninja, cowboy shot bear, and ninja killed cowboy. Pretty silly but it was funny to watch....
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Re: Horrible Losing Streak, Wren, 6. Aug 2003 14:57
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> Nonsense! I always throw rock, how random is that? I can't tell you how many times I've told my opponent that I'm
> going to throw rock every time; proceeded to do it, and still won. Some people are just distrustful.

Heh. That's like saying "OoooOOooo! I have the nuts!" at a loose, passive table when you, indeed, have the nuts. Everyone, of course, comes in anyway :O)

> When I used to play ultimate frisbee alot they used to do bear/cowboy/ninja to decide who got the disc first. It was
> basically a full bodied version of ro-sham-bo. You would stand back to back with your opponent, each walk five steps,
> then turn around and either do a bear (stand there with your hands in the air like an attacking bear), a ninja (karate
> stance), or a cowboy (two pistols with your hands). In that game bear mauled ninja, cowboy shot bear, and ninja killed
> cowboy. Pretty silly but it was funny to watch....

Heehee. I can imagine.
Probably a fun thing to do (albeit mildly unsafe) while intoxicated :O)
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Re: Horrible Losing Streak, stdioh, 7. Aug 2003 09:41
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Malarky. A ninja could kick a bear's ass :)

I used to play ultimate back in highschool ... good damn hell memories. We were able to pack our entire team into the one guy's 1978 Chevy Malibu ... that's 8 guys and 6 girls. It was hilarious...we'd show up at a game and looks like a bunch of clowns getting out of the little car.
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Re: Horrible Losing Streak, stdioh, 6. Aug 2003 16:45
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There's a lot of psychology to rochambeau ... much moreso than poker. It takes away all randomness since no player has cards. It is all about reads. Sure any one of the two players can "force" randomness by playing randomly themselves, but human beings are extremely bad at attempting randomness. Extremely bad. If you're not using some kind of random generation device it is harder than you might think. Then it comes down to pattern recognition and reading your opponent. When you are playing a game up to a high number, (just like playing a lot of poker hands) skill becomes more dominant than luck. Phil Hellmuth, by the way, is considered an expert RPS player.

And a good link is www.worldrps.com - I got snowed out of showing up to the worlds in Toronto last year :(
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Re: Horrible Losing Streak, ezcheese, 7. Aug 2003 10:35
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Roshambo is not rock, paper, scissors...

To play Roshambo:
1)The two players line up about 5 feet apart, facing each other, legs about shoulder width apart.
2)Player 1 runs at Player 2 and kicks him in the testicles as hard as possible.
3)Players line up again (if player 2 is able)
4)Player 2 runs at Player 1 and kicks him in the testicles as hard as possible.

Process repeats until a player quits.
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only in South Park, stdioh, 8. Aug 2003 16:17
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In South Park, Cartman redefined Rochambeau as the nuts kicking event. Long before that it was the term for rock paper scissors.

And for the record it is illegal to throw the "texas longhorn"
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Re: Horrible Losing Streak, Dr_Monkey, 6. Aug 2003 10:16
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I know the feeling. I haven't lost $300, but my losses hurt just the same. The beginning of the month I was down $70 on my UB account. Made that all back plus $17 thru some SnGs and some NL ring games. Was feeling pretty good.

For the last 2 weeks I haven't been able to do anything good at UB. Maybe it's bad luck or lack of skill or experience. Haven't placed in any SnGs at UB. Been losing at the NL Ring games. Not sure what is wrong. Just bad beats or bad calls. Whatever it is, I am down $44.

I have a stop limit of $75. Might play one more $5 SnG and if I lose, try $25 in NL ring. Or might use $30 for all SnGs. If I hit $75 loss, I think I am closing my account. UB has become my Nemisis.

Just my 2 cents of venting...
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Re: Horrible Losing Streak, mroban, 6. Aug 2003 11:45
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But where else to go?????

I really dig UB and the vibe there. But the games at Poker Room were much softer. Might have to consider going back to ring game play there.

For now, its sit and gos and .15/.25 pot limit omaha until I build back my bankroll.
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Re: Horrible Losing Streak, donrhem, 6. Aug 2003 11:57
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I agree will all of you. I had the same thing happen to me earlier this week at UB.

I lost four hands in a row with AA, KK, KK, AKs all on the river. One AA was capped pre-flop and nobody had a pair or an AK. The winner called all bets with an A5os and hit a runner runner straight.

I was about to give up (which I did for the night) but decided to try again the next day.

I made sure I played my ABC game and after the flop if I had middle pair or better with a high kicker I would raise every bet made. I hit a few hands and after awhile they either would quit calling me or FOLD on the river when I bet.

I have made about 75 BB in the last 2 hours playing at the 2-4 game.

Hang in there!

Don
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Re: Horrible Losing Streak, Dr_Monkey, 6. Aug 2003 12:19
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For me I will be at Empire Poker. I moved up to the $10 SnG and came in 1st and 2nd in my first 2 games. Haven't play again at Empire, making myself suffer at UB for a while.

I like UB. I really want to figure out the SnG there so I can afford some Aruba games.

For some reason I have done better at Empire. (Knock wood). Their SnGs are so loose and wild, it is not hard to get to be the last 5-6 people. Once the blinds get higher, it takes 1-2 blind steals to make the money. If you win a pot, you are sitting pretty. Plus you start at 800 in chips and the blinds are 25/50 by 30 hands.

Last night, I was in a $10 SnG at UB. We played 51 hands and it was still 10 people. I was holding my own and wasn't worried, but at Empire you have 4-6 people by 50 hands. And 6 is not to common.

Going to play empire tonight. If all goes well, I will play UB tomorrow and really focus.

on 6. Aug 2003 11:45 mroban wrote:
> But where else to go?????
>
> I really dig UB and the vibe there. But the games at Poker Room were much softer. Might
> have to consider going back to ring game play there.
>
> For now, its sit and gos and .15/.25 pot limit omaha until I build back my bankroll.
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Re: Horrible Losing Streak, mroban, 6. Aug 2003 13:51
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I have actually (after an initial losing streak) started doing very well in the UB sits. But they do take significantly more concentration and patience than the ones at Party Poker.

Party Poker far and away has the fishiest NL Sit and gos.

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Re: Horrible Losing Streak, shorn, 6. Aug 2003 11:59
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It happens to everyone. Pro's too. No one is immune to stretches of good luck and bad luck. In fact, I am big believer in mean reversion in a game. If you have been winning at whatever limit that you play by more than 3 BB's an hour, a negative adjustment is likely on the way. No player wins that consistently on skill alone...much of our good fortune in the short run is the luck factor.

So, what you need to do is take a break. And then come back and focus, focus, focus. It is the winning player that minimizes his/her losses during the bad times which is much harder to do than reaping the benefits of the good times.
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Re: Horrible Losing Streak, stdioh, 6. Aug 2003 13:02
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It happens to the best of that. For the first 3 months of this year, I was making over 3 BB per hour. I lost the majority of that in 3 sessions (though one of them was at a higher limit) ... sometimes thing go really bad really fast and you have two choices:

1) you can deal with it, keep playing a positive game and hope you get luckier in the future

2) you can post here and say, INTERNET POKER IS RIGGED ITS A SCAM YOUR GOING TO LOOSE ALL YOUR MONEY ITS ON CNN.

The choice is one I leave up to you :)
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Re: Horrible Losing Streak, Mike812, 6. Aug 2003 13:13
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I know how it is to les massive amounts of money on tilt. This is what I do, I dont play any ring games because that is my weakness. Especially Limit. I am strong in NL and in sit-n-gos, so I try to make my money back doing that.

Also, heres a little secret for everyone. I have made a couple $100 on royalvegaspoker.com. The games are sooooooooo easy and you get $10 free for opening up an account. You dont even have to deposit any money, yo uget the $10 for free! I figured that I did well on that site so I cashed out without even depositing. It was a pain in the ass to cash out thought, it took me over a week to get it! But after losing all my money on UB, I have broke even playing on this site. Just a tip for you guys

Mike
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Re: Horrible Losing Streak, stdioh, 6. Aug 2003 16:49
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I'm not even talking about tilt. When I blasted away all that money in 3 sessions (about 24 hours) I wasn't stuck and steaming. I was just getting thumped by a mean deck. You name it. I was flopping lots of sets and none of them were holding up. I was getting lots of AA and KK and none of them were holding up.

If you're tilting then not getting cards will cost you money, but if you're playing solid and catching bad turns and rivers it is getting the cards that costs you money. And when you turn that nut flush and get rivered by a full house and get ready to cry, leave for the day, come back, have it happen again, leave for the day, have it happen again, then look at yourself in the mirror and say, "I would be making better money this year cutting sugar cane outside of Havana," it doesn't mean you were necessarilly tilting.
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Re: Horrible Losing Streak, mroban, 6. Aug 2003 13:54
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stdioh:

clearly I am a guy who falls in the first camp.

I am just venting. It feels good.

I will be back and winning in no time, I am sure.

But shorn is absolutely correct. Its part of the game. I know that, but am just frustrated.

Btw, I AM coming to your card room in September. I might even buy you and Wren dinner first.
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Re: Horrible Losing Streak, bane277, 6. Aug 2003 15:21
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i know exactly what you guys are saying ...i had the same thing happen to me ..after a few months of swearing off on line play i decided to put in 50 dollars on UB and play low limit games and just see what happens i turned the 50 into 350 over the course of one night...then over the course of about 5 days i lost every damn bit of it back ...everytime i raised 4 or 5 maybe even 6 players in the hand..hard to win with a high pocket pair or AK when there are 5 other players in the hand all waiting to kick your ass with 93s...there is nothing you can do ...just hang on ..it will turn around...if you have the bankroll...you know you want them playing those hands or else you wouldnt make any money...but for me i have sworn off playing on line for a while until i can afford to play at least 4-8 because the suckouts are killing me...too easy for me to make consitent money in B&M play...just my opinion

bane277
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Re: Horrible Losing Streak, stdioh, 6. Aug 2003 16:51
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If you were able to turn $50 into $350 in just one night then it is almost a dead certainty that you were playing vastly above where you should have been for your bankroll. If you continued to play at those stakes or moved up from them then it is perfectly reasonable for you to lose it all back.

If you can make $300 in one night at some poker game then I promise you that it is possible to play just as well and lose $350 the next.
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Re: Horrible Losing Streak, stdioh, 6. Aug 2003 16:50
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Cool. It'll be good to meet you and I'll never turn down a free meal :)
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Re: Horrible Losing Streak, mroban, 7. Aug 2003 12:36
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looking forward to it as well
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Re: Horrible Losing Streak, WilliamS, 7. Aug 2003 06:14
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Hate to keep beating the same drum, but yes the same happened to me. I deposited 500 a little over a week ago. I played some 1-2 ,.5-1.00 NL, and a few sit n gos and in 3 days I was up to 1100 bucks. I couldn't believe how easy the games were. (Of course, 300 bucks of that came from one NL session where an initial 25 bucks yielded great returns). Every flop seemed to hit me and no bad beats it was GREEAT. Then the next three days turned that back into 550 bucks. I let emotion get the best of me and started to escalate my games and tourneys. (I played 3 50 buck sit-n-gos and lost quickly with solid cards each times) Two things happened to me, I started playing games above the limits of my bankroll and the deck quit running me over. I began to tilt and amazingly enough for me I decide to take a break. So I took Monday off, no poker whatsoever, reading UPF was my only poker fix. Started back Tuesday staying at the lower limits that my bankroll is sufficient for and beginning to nurse back up.
I'm back to 650 now and hopefully back on solid ground.
Someone, it may have been stdioh, posted a message a couple days ago about the power of positive thinking or something similar to that. How if you think your blessed you will be blessed; I forget the exact wording, but I totally agree. It takes a huge amount of discipline but if we are having a bad day or we are emotional, poker isn't what we should be doing. I use poker as a way to get my mind off work, but on days where things aren't going well I'm going to have to find another release because losing poker isn't my idea of recreation. I think the key word in that sentence, for me anyway, is discipline. I think that is where my high variance arose from.
Sorry so long
Will
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Re: Horrible Losing Streak, bane277, 7. Aug 2003 08:32
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stdioh,
you are probably right i should not have moved up in limit i should have stayed at the .50/1 game that i made a little money in until my bankroll on line could handle a bad streak at the higher limits...what i did was move up after i had made a couple of hundred to higher limits because i hated playing the .50/1 because of the bad beats and then suffered the same suckouts at the higer limits ...had i stayed at the lower limits i would not have lost money as quickley and could have held on to wait for it to turn around...i guess on line might not be for me until i can afford to throw in a several hundred to go to higher limit games...thanks for the insight

bane277
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Re: Horrible Losing Streak, Cardmaster69, 7. Aug 2003 12:23
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Hey, Mroban. Do you live in NYC? Just wondering because I' m in NYC and Im dying to get a game going I got the perfect place and everything. Let me know okay.
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Re: Horrible Losing Streak, mroban, 7. Aug 2003 12:30
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yes, I am in NYC. Let me know the details, would love to join a good game.
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