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Server Time: 12/1/2008 8:33:25 PM PACIFIC |
 Flush Draw Question, Chip, 6. Aug 2003 00:49 | ||
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| I just recently started playing some Low Limit Hold 'Em and have spent a fair amount of time doing my homework before tangling with some $2/4 and $3/6 games. Now that I've started playing live (and am up a little bit which is not bad for a rookie I'd imagine), I've been wondering about certain flush draws. Now regardless of the source, most agree that you can play small suited connectors in a middle to late position (and even some suited one gaps in a late position), and that's just what I do. However I'm having a problem figuring out whether or not to lay the hand down when the Flop comes with two more suited to my flush yet there is action on the board. For example, let's say I'm one from the button and am playing a 65s spades with 7 callers and the flop comes Jc 10s 3s. Great, four to my flush and hopefully some people have caught two pair or trips or even four to their straight which will result in plenty of bets and the pot odds I need to stay in. Yet with the action that starts coming up (raise or not) when do I start worrying about a bigger flush being out there, or do I not worry about it at all and continue on my way? Should I be worried about all the higher spades out there that would take me out if the flush were made? But what's the point of holding onto those smaller suited cards if you're too worried about them getting beaten even with a great flop for you? There's no way to get a read on my opponents since they'll play almost anything and I'm left there wondering what to do. Thanks for any advice you could give me. -Chip (no my parents did not play poker) | ||
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| Re: Flush Draw Question, LEEBOG, 6. Aug 2003 04:21 | ||
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| on 6. Aug 2003 00:49 Chip wrote: " Should I be worried about all the higher spades out there that would take me out if the flush were made? But what's the point of holding onto those smaller suited cards if you're too worried about them getting beaten even with a great flop for you?" Thats the problem with low suited connectors, but in this case, there are so many draws you would have to see the turn card. If the spade does hit the turn, you would either bet it out and see what happens, and then hope to hell another spade doesnt hit the river, cuz you know someone will be calling with A,K, or Q spade. Personally, i like suited connectors in pots with raises and 5 or 6 callers, because they usually lead to big pots, but they also suck you in. GL | ||
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| Re: Flush Draw Question, Guru, 6. Aug 2003 09:04 | ||
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| When you're playing these low suited connectors, you're really playing them more for the straight draw than the flush draw, the fact that they're suited is a little bit of bonus. These hands are very sneaky and look like they aren't anything with the right flop. Say you started with the 56s and the flop comes J-4-7 rainbow. Now, on the turn, the 8 drops. You hit the straight and anyone with a high pair or a set will bet into you until the well runs dry. If you hit your flush, you are in danger of a higher flush. I would be looking for another player that was calling all the way then livens up and starts raising bets as soon as the third suited card drops. Someone may be bluffing, but you have to look at the pot odds and past playing habits of the new raisier to decide if you believe he has the hand. | ||
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| Re: Flush Draw Question, JaggedEj, 6. Aug 2003 09:13 | ||
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| I think this is a great question and would definately like some comments from the regulars | ||
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| Re: Flush Draw Question, tpir90036, 6. Aug 2003 10:27 | ||
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| if the action is passive before the flop you might as well take a card off and see what the turn brings. if it is 3 or 4 bet to you though and people are bailing out your pot odds will go out the window. your pot odds might be out the window anyway since you are not drawing to the nuts. this also might be a good spot to try a raise on the flop in the hopes of getting a free card on the turn. you might even be able to get some of those overcard stragglers out. you will know where you are on the turn based on what happens in front of you and what card hits. hopefully if it doesn't hit they check to you and give you the river for free. also, you might not be able to read your opponents but knowing if they are the type of people who play any ace or king (or over cards) is helpful. if a *4th* spade falls on the river, now you are dead if people will play any face cards....a spade higher than yours is out there for sure if there are still 5 or 6 people in the pot. ideally you would have a straight draw to fall back on....so just play it cheap. 65s is easier to get away from then QTs and other such garbage that people get trapped with. 2 cents.... | ||
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| Re: Flush Draw Question, JaggedEj, 6. Aug 2003 11:15 | ||
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| But the points is... What is the added value of low SUITED connectors if you have to toss them with any action. Maybe in limit I can just call another bet and see. But in NL, you can get in real trouble if someone bets big into you | ||
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| Re: Flush Draw Question, tpir90036, 6. Aug 2003 11:59 | ||
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| schuster made my point much more succinctly in his post below this one. the point in playing the low suited connectors is sneaking in for cheap, flopping huge and having people pay you off big time because they don't give you credit for having the nuts and they think their overcards, big pairs will hold up. i was not saying to ditch them to flush action. just be wary of 3+ betting on the turn/river since it probably means you have the not-quite nuts. | ||
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| Re: Flush Draw Question, Schuster, 6. Aug 2003 11:44 | ||
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| In limit games, I'll play the low suited connectors for a flush nearly all the time, as long as I have proper pot odds. If you aren't going to play a hand like 65s when you flop a flush draw, don't play it to begin with. Yes, there will be times when you are outflushed, but if you're careful, you won't lose as much as you could. Don't go 4 betting the river with your baby flush if someone else seems just as anxious to put the money in. Lee | ||
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| Re: Flush Draw Question, ezcheese, 7. Aug 2003 11:24 | ||
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| I see the point that if you hit your flush but throw your hand away at action, there really is no point to play low suited connectors at all... think about it this way... there are 13 cards to every suit... if there are 3 on the board and 2 in your hand... that leaves 7... depending on the number of players at the table, the chances of someone else having the flush is 7/45*6/44= 2% chance that they also have a flush... and if you are holding a 78s and the flush is all made by overcards JKAs... your opponent has to have the Q, T, or 9 of that suit in order to beat your flush... don't know how to do the math on that but that gives you even better odds... ***if my math or thinking is wrong please let me know*** | ||
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| Re: Flush Draw Question, Schuster, 7. Aug 2003 12:14 | ||
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| I'm not saying I'll throw it away, but if I river my flush, raise the person who has been the aggressor through the hand, and he 3 bets, I'm not going to dismiss the possibility that he has me outflushed. I'm not going to make it 4 bets, I'm going to call. | ||
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| Re: Flush Draw Question, ezcheese, 7. Aug 2003 14:10 | ||
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| ok I definately will agree with you, call the re-raise but don't cap it... I thought you were talking about mucking if he comes over the top. | ||
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| Re: Flush Draw Question, Schuster, 8. Aug 2003 00:23 | ||
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| At that point, the pot is probably laying you at least 10 to 1 on a call... you'd have to have a hell of a read on the player to lay it down to a 3 bet! Lee | ||
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| Re: Flush Draw Question, Roy Cooke, 7. Aug 2003 12:25 | ||
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| Hi Chip I am much less of a suited connector fan in loose games than most experts......Reason being, often you are drawing dead to your flush....Those many callers are often playing Kx's, Qx's Jx's ect. I am not saying suited connectors are unplayable......But I attach less value to them than many poker experts do! Roy Cooke on 6. Aug 2003 00:49 Chip wrote: > I just recently started playing some Low Limit Hold 'Em and have spent a fair > amount of time doing my homework before tangling with some $2/4 and $3/6 games. > Now that I've started playing live (and am up a little bit which is not bad for > a rookie I'd imagine), I've been wondering about certain flush draws. > > Now regardless of the source, most agree that you can play small suited > connectors in a middle to late position (and even some suited one gaps in a late > position), and that's just what I do. However I'm having a problem figuring out > whether or not to lay the hand down when the Flop comes with two more suited to > my flush yet there is action on the board. > > For example, let's say I'm one from the button and am playing a 65s spades with > 7 callers and the flop comes Jc 10s 3s. Great, four to my flush and hopefully > some people have caught two pair or trips or even four to their straight which > will result in plenty of bets and the pot odds I need to stay in. Yet with the > action that starts coming up (raise or not) when do I start worrying about a > bigger flush being out there, or do I not worry about it at all and continue on > my way? Should I be worried about all the higher spades out there that would > take me out if the flush were made? But what's the point of holding onto those > smaller suited cards if you're too worried about them getting beaten even with a > great flop for you? There's no way to get a read on my opponents since they'll > play almost anything and I'm left there wondering what to do. > > Thanks for any advice you could give me. > > -Chip (no my parents did not play poker) | ||
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| Re: Flush Draw Question, mongi, 7. Aug 2003 13:09 | ||
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| Look for certain betting patterns that may indicate you are drawing dead. For instance, if there is a bet, a raise ,a reraise and then a couple callers to you I would muck the hand on the flop. If there are 4 or fewer people in the pot I would not be overly concerned that somebody else is on a flush draw. If it is a family pot it now becomes a real possibility. | ||
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| Re: Flush Draw Question, mongi, 7. Aug 2003 13:09 | ||
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| Look for certain betting patterns that may indicate you are drawing dead. For instance, if there is a bet, a raise ,a reraise and then a couple callers to you I would muck the hand on the flop. If there are 4 or fewer people in the pot I would not be overly concerned that somebody else is on a flush draw. If it is a family pot it now becomes a real possibility. | ||
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