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Server Time: 9/5/2008 4:54:22 PM PACIFIC |
 PLOmaha8 Hand Question, mroban, 5. Aug 2003 16:21 | ||
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| My friend and I were both playing in a pretty fishy live game with 3 guys that didn't know pot limit omaha8 very well. But, they all three were "live ones". Liked to play a lot of hands and see a lot of action. Needless to say, my buddy and I split most of the money by nights end. But here was one really interesting hand that we debated what the right play on the river was. I was the dealer and was dealt AA3K. One of the aces was suited with the trey. We were playing antes, so everyone had antedb $2. Everyone checked around so I checked as well. The flop came 26J rainbow. My buddy to my left checks, first fish bets $1, second one calls, third fish folds and I raise the pot. As predicted, fish one and two both call. My buddy folds. The turn brings an A of hearts (the flopped 6 was also a heart). Fish one checks, fish 2 bets $1 and I raise the pot again $20. Both (again, predictably) call. There is now $80 in the pot. I am figuring at least one is chasing a flush or has what he thinks is a good hand (like JJ66 or JJJ). Possibly a straight draw too. Unfortunately, the A, while giving me the best hand just ruined my low hand. I figured fish 2 for a made low hand. The river was the 9h. Not a great card for me, but I had position. Fish 1 checks, fish 2 checks. Hmmm. Well, if either of these guys had anything they were confident in, they probably would have bet. So, I figured I had the best high hand. But, I had just reraised on both previous rounds, and these guys didn't have the balls to raise the pot. So knowing that I probably (but not definitely) had the high hand and knowing that I didn't have a low. I checked. Fish 1 had JJ99 and no low (he was actually trying to draw another J!). Fish 2 had a good (but not great low). Good enough though. So I won about $40 (about a $10 profit I think). My buddy argued that I should have made a potsized raise, because they both might have folded. I thought about it, but with the flush card on board, I think it is still possible they could have checked with that much money in the pot and knowing that I could still raise. What do you think? Since I didn't have the nuts and I was pretty sure at least one player had a low, I think I made the right (at least prudent) decision. | ||
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| Re: PLOmaha8 Hand Question, stdioh, 6. Aug 2003 08:44 | ||
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| I think you played the hand wrong and here is why. On the flop you've got a nut low draw, but no high draw - why is that? Well, the only way you'll make a high is if you hit your ace and if you do that you ruin your low. So no matter what, you're playing for half of the pot. There's also a good chance that you'll be quartered on the low and there's a chance that you have your low counterfeited and don't win the high. So I would have just called on the flop. Now when I hit my ace, things get interesting. You've got no low and you're on top set, so if the board pairs you'll almost certainly win and if a brick hits the river you've got a good chance too. Now I think that betting the pot is ok, since you have position. When the river card brings a flush, you are in a very bad way. You've only got a set and the chance of somebody having some flush is pretty good. Important question: did you have the Kh? Against decent players if you're holding the card that makes a nut flush without having the flush, this would be a good place to bluff. You can beat anybody who is playing a low and happens to have a junky high, but you can fold other players off their flushes to take the high side. This would be a great move. But this is irrelevant since you are playing with dummies. On that river I would fold to a sizeable bet, but I would call a small bet. | ||
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| Re: PLOmaha8 Hand Question, mroban, 6. Aug 2003 09:08 | ||
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| Thanks stdioh, great though. It hadn't occurred to me until the A hit the turn that I was playing for half the pot all along. Great analysis, thanks. | ||
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| Re: PLOmaha8 Hand Question, mroban, 6. Aug 2003 09:15 | ||
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| stdioh, one question though - since I had position and was fairly certain (but not 100%) that I had the high beat (I am, again, fairly certain a made flush bets into me) should I have bet the pot (or made a smaller bet designed to call) on the river. Sounds like to me, you liked my play on the turn, but calling on the flop would have been a better, more prudent play (I agree). Given that I was checked to on the river, I am wondering whether I should trust my read and make a bet for value at that point. If you think one player will fold against any bet and the other will play against any bet (and you know the one who will call has you beat on the low) I still think calling is the correct play here. The only way I could justify making a bet with the flush card hitting (and no, I did not have the Kh, but that is a great thought) is to trust my read entirely and make a small bet ($5) that will win back $2.50. But giving up 1-2 odds on my bet when I am not 100% sure sounds like a bad poker play. So I think the answer is that the bet would have to be sufficient to get BOTH players to fold in order to justify the odds. I am certain that the player with the low hand (it was a nut low, I think he had 2-4 with the board reading A36) was playing no matter what. so again, I think I am correct in checking here. | ||
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| Re: PLOmaha8 Hand Question, Jav, 6. Aug 2003 10:13 | ||
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| The problem is there is a good chance someone is sitting on a low and a low flush. There's also a good chance that that person will call your river bet. They may not want to bet it, but they will probably call a small bet, and depending on what type of player they are they might even call a pot bet. Normally this type of player is what you want hanging on to the river to pay off your nut flushes and nut lows. But in your situation, you will probably be happy just to take down the pot without risking any more money. | ||
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| Re: PLOmaha8 Hand Question, stdioh, 6. Aug 2003 13:10 | ||
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| No. Position isn't everything. Here anybody with any flush beats you and if these guys are as bad as you say they are, one of them may call with a flush that is very non nutty. When there's a board like that any bet you make is a stone cold bluff. You're in a position where the only hands that will call you are hands that can beat you. Yes, you might fold everybody and take the whole thing, but you're better off taking half, considering yourself lucky and waiting until next time. As soon as you start getting pushy in Omaha with non nut hands, you start getting your ass handed to you. Bad players can still have good cards. And in general, bluffing is a bad idea in O8. Here's where I'll bluff though. Lets say that I'm holding the nut low and the river brings a flush. I see that my ace is suited to this flush so I know that nobody else has the nuts. Now I also have a straight for high. I know that it isn't going to be the best hand, but I know that if I fold off everybody playing the high side, my straight may be the best among those playing a low. I'm worried that I'll be quartered for low, but now I bet out pot. All of a sudden other straights and worse flushes are folding like billy be-damned. I get one caller and he's also holding the nut low. Now he gets quartered and I get called a fish by the guy who folded a third nut flush. So yes, there are places where you can bluff in O8 to be sure, but in general you should be "blocking" the nuts when you do it or have some other good reason. Certainly when you're playing with players who are bad and play non-nut hands you shouldn't be bluffing at all. | ||
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