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Server Time: 9/5/2008 4:51:12 PM PACIFIC |
 Hand Analysis, Mark, 5. Aug 2003 06:20 | ||
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| Here is another hand from the same session which I posted about yesterday (AA in late pos @ $3-6 loose-passive hold'em) In contrast to the AA hand, i think i really misplayed this hand. The table had turned very loose lately, with lots of callers and some crazy draws beating made hands (i.e. perfect-perfect runners to a 2 gapped gutshot draw, baby backdoor flushes, and garbage to runners for trips) So when i got 10-10 UTG, i had a very ominous feeling. I expected to either end up with an under pair, or get outdrawn (not a good way to think). I did not raise it up UTG, but just limped instead. I knew i would have to dump this hand if I didn't make a set on the flop. (This was a very bad way to think, as a pre-flop raise would probably have won me the pot later). There are about 6 other callers. The flop comes A 9 7 with a two flush. I lead out, and get raised by an early position player. The raise gets called in middle and late positions. I know the raiser could have as little as a draw at this point, but between the raiser and the two callers, someone probably had me badly beat. Most aces were getting played at this table, one of my opponents could easily have two pair or a set, and with the draws out against me, i figured my hand was doomed (as i thought from the start). Even I made a set, it would put a str8 possibility on the table and a flush could still come. So I folded instead of calling one SB. What do you all think? The way the hand played out was: the turn was an 3offsuit. the flop raiser checked, middle player bet (aggressive player), late player folded, early player called. The river was a Q and both remaining players checked. The early position player won the hand with a busted flush draw Jack. Looking back, if i had correctly rasied pre-flop, there would have been less players in on the flop. This combined with my early aggression, would make it less likely to have my flop bet raised. But then even if it was, i would probably have called due to pot odds and (if heads up or short handed) the fact that many players raise the flop with draws at this table. This would put me at a decision on the turn. When a rag falls I could lead again and fold if raised. Or i could check call, as the turn bettor was a very aggressive lady who bet out everything when checked to. Then the river would get checked down, and i would take the pot. My ominous feeling from the start persuaded me not play aggressively, as i was expecting to lose it and didn't want to throw alot of bets away. What do you guys think of my actual play, and how should i have played it? mark | ||
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| Re: Hand Analysis, shorn, 5. Aug 2003 06:34 | ||
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| Again, I think you played correctly pre-flop as UTG when the game is loose, you want to see the flop cheaply. Based on what you said folks called the flop and turn with, they would have called your pre-flop raise without thinking. The only mistake I see is that you bet out on the flop. I would have check/folded this flop simply because with 1 bet behind and two or three callers, what are the chances that someone DOESN'T have an Ace? Quite low. If you call and are wrong, you are drawing to a 23-1 shot on the turn and there isn't enough $$ in the pot to go for it. Ace flops spell doom for many middle to semi-high pocket pairs in LLHE. I guarantee you will save money long run (and therefore increase your hourly rate) if you play those pairs as "no set no bet". | ||
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| Re: Hand Analysis, Easy E, 5. Aug 2003 11:28 | ||
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| on 5. Aug 2003 06:34 shorn wrote: . I would have check/folded this flop simply because > with 1 bet behind and two or three callers, what are the chances that someone DOESN'T > have an Ace? Quite low. If you call and are wrong, you are drawing to a 23-1 shot > on the turn and there isn't enough $$ in the pot to go for it. I think this answers my "fishing" question pretty well... > > Ace flops spell doom for many middle to semi-high pocket pairs in LLHE. I guarantee > you will save money long run (and therefore increase your hourly rate) if you play > those pairs as "no set no bet". Which is good, but does that preclude a pre-flop raise with 6+ callers in the effort to hit or quit? | ||
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| Re: Hand Analysis, shorn, 5. Aug 2003 12:04 | ||
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| You can pre-flop raise from late position, but you don't have enough information to do it from early. Also, you have to remember that you are building in implied odds for more people to stay with really weak draws if there are 6 callers. Yes, the table is loose and they might stay anyway, but why raise pre-flop and guarantee them the odds to do so? I just think this is a better limp and then check/fold to a bad flop. You are guaranteeing yourself close to the 7-1 to flop your set, and you are getting out cheaply if you don't. Plus, if you raise there is a chance that it could be 4-bet back to you at a loose table. Then you have paid two bets and probably don't even get to see the flop...a bad bargain in my book. | ||
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| Re: Hand Analysis, WilliamS, 5. Aug 2003 06:41 | ||
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| Interesting hand. -as far as preflop goes- Raising 10s Utg in that game, in my opinion, is iffy. You probably aren't going to get many hands to fold to your bet because at low limits an UTG raise isn't as respected as it is in higher games. So you are probably going to have to hit a set to win. Therefore, the hand plays better against multiple opponents (pot odds). However, there is an argument on the other side that says raise it, narrow the field, and hope they hold up. I can go either way here, I think there is an argument for both. Flop You lead out to see where you stand. I think this is the correct thing to do. A raise and 2 cold callers tell you (falsely in this case) that you are drawing to 2 outs, (your two 10s). I feel you made the correct decision in folding your hand. I think it is the long-term correct play it just had negative results in the short term. (I might've called the raise and took one more card off because I'm weak like that ;)) My 2 cents, Will | ||
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| Re: Hand Analysis, Roy Cooke, 5. Aug 2003 07:41 | ||
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| My comments are underneath your statements on 5. Aug 2003 06:20 Mark wrote: > Here is another hand from the same session which I posted about yesterday (AA in > late pos @ $3-6 loose-passive hold'em) > > In contrast to the AA hand, i think i really misplayed this hand. > > The table had turned very loose lately, with lots of callers and some crazy > draws beating made hands (i.e. perfect-perfect runners to a 2 gapped gutshot > draw, baby backdoor flushes, and garbage to runners for trips) > > So when i got 10-10 UTG, i had a very ominous feeling. I expected to either > end up with an under pair, or get outdrawn (not a good way to think). I did not > raise it up UTG, but just limped instead. I knew i would have to dump this hand > if I didn't make a set on the flop. > (This was a very bad way to think, as a pre-flop raise would probably have won > me the pot later). Roy Says:I do not think calling with this hand is a bad play in a very loose game....Generally the hand is flop dependent in that texture of game and limping will lower the cost of the times you get away from the hand and increase the chance of post flop action if you flop a set. > > There are about 6 other callers. The flop comes A 9 7 with a two flush. I > lead out, and get raised by an early position player. The raise gets called in > middle and late positions. Roy Says:With Six other callers I think leading into a flop that contains an Ace is a very bad play.....It is almost certain someone has an ace and you have only two wins over his hand (the other two tens). Where is the value in betting this hand? > > I know the raiser could have as little as a draw at this point, but between > the raiser and the two callers, someone probably had me badly beat. Most aces > were getting played at this table, one of my opponents could easily have two > pair or a set, and with the draws out against me, i figured my hand was doomed > (as i thought from the start). Even I made a set, it would put a str8 > possibility on the table and a flush could still come. > > So I folded instead of calling one SB. What do you all think? Roy Says:Probably a good move...although a better one would have been to unload for free on the flop. > > The way the hand played out was: the turn was an 3offsuit. the flop raiser > checked, middle player bet (aggressive player), late player folded, early player > called. The river was a Q and both remaining players checked. The early > position player won the hand with a busted flush draw Jack. Roy Says:That is a VERY unusual scenario for that flop and texture of game. > > Looking back, if i had correctly rasied pre-flop, there would have been less > players in on the flop. This combined with my early aggression, would make it > less likely to have my flop bet raised. But then even if it was, i would > probably have called due to pot odds and (if heads up or short handed) the fact > that many players raise the flop with draws at this table. Roy Says:You are Monday morning quarterbacking.....Yes, after the hand you can design how the hand should have been played based on complete information....But in poker you must make your decisions based on the information that is current. > > This would put me at a decision on the turn. When a rag falls I could lead > again and fold if raised. Or i could check call, as the turn bettor was a very > aggressive lady who bet out everything when checked to. > > Then the river would get checked down, and i would take the pot. > > My ominous feeling from the start persuaded me not play aggressively, as i was > expecting to lose it and didn't want to throw alot of bets away. > > What do you guys think of my actual play, and how should i have played it? Roy Says:I think you should have check folded the flop....Yes , I understand the hand was good.....but check folding was the percentage right play. Keep making the right percentage play over time and the money will come your way! > > mark | ||
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| Re: Hand Analysis, Easy E, 5. Aug 2003 11:25 | ||
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| on 5. Aug 2003 07:41 Roy Cooke wrote: >Roy Says:Probably a good move...although a better one would have been to unload for > free on the flop. > Roy Says:I think you should have check folded the flop....Yes , I understand the > hand was good.....but check folding was the percentage right play. Keep making the > right percentage play over time and the money will come your way! Roy, are the implied odds there to check-call the flop in an attempt to spike a ten on the turn, as long as you hold the ten of hearts? What if you don't- can you still go fishing? If the Th would come on the turn, does the set always mandate continuing, since the flushes will pay you off? | ||
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| Re: Hand Analysis, Andrew Wells, 5. Aug 2003 08:28 | ||
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| Since you said lots of loose callers, my preference would have been to simply call before the flop as you did. What was unclear is whether a raise would just mean three or four cold callers instead of more. Unless I think a raise will cut it down to two opponents I don't raise with TT up front. That doesn't mean it will happen, only that I think there's a good chance of getting it down to three-way or heads up before the flop. With an ace on the flop I just check and fold here. So what if there's draws available, that just means there are fewer blanks in the deck if you indeed have the best hand on the flop. A semi-coordinated board with an ace in this kind of game is going to get too expensive. Wait for a better oportunity than an underpair multiway. | ||
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| Re: Hand Analysis, Barry T, 5. Aug 2003 10:51 | ||
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| HI. I a with Roy.There is no need to open raise with TT in as very loose game. Your bet ont he flop was not well thought out. What is the point? WIth six players, someone has to have an ace (yes, I know they didn't this time) and with the flop suited and connected, you will face a raise from this crowd even if nobody does. Plus, even if you hand is good, it still has to survive two draws from five other players. Yes, it might turn out to be the best hand but so what? You are in bad position with a bad hand for the flop and lots of oppponents. Check and fold. BarryT | ||
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| Re: Hand Analysis, Easy E, 5. Aug 2003 11:26 | ||
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| on 5. Aug 2003 10:51 Barry T wrote: > HI. I a with Roy.There is no need to open raise with TT in as very loose game. I questioned this also. If they are going to be loose, shouldn't you raise pre-flop to build a big pot? You have some hard thinking to do on the flop if they are aggressive, but I wouldn't have much ego tied into raising pre-flop and dumping on the flop, or taking one off and then dumping. | ||
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| Re: Hand Analysis, 4 POKER, 5. Aug 2003 13:19 | ||
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| Mark, In a very loose game it's acceptable to just limp in with 10-10 but once you do that and get many callers, you have to consider folding on the flop now when an Ace appears. IMO, if you were going to lead at the flop when after the Ace came up, then you should have raised your hand pre-flop to try and knock out some of those Ace rags, (even though that wasn't the case *this* time, that's a main reason why you *would* raise your hand pre-flop). I think you played it a little backwards and *not* because you just limped pre-flop, but because you were chosing to be passive pre-flop (which is fine in a loose game), but then I think that maybe you forgotten as to why you limped in the first place, which was trying to hit a very favorable flop, correct? But then you decided to get aggresive when an Ace fell. If you were going to try and be the aggresor and try to knock out some of your opponents after seeing that flop, then your own results may have been better if you chose to be more aggresive with it pre-flop. Once you decide to limp, you also allow players to come in with numerous holdings, especially in a very loose game, and many of them will limp in with Ace rag as well,.......and once they flop an Ace, no matter how small their kicker may be, they're going to call a bet. Regardless of whether your hand was good on the end, I would have check-folded it on the flop. Too many customers in there at this point. 4 POKER | ||
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| Re: Hand Analysis, DJpoker, 5. Aug 2003 20:52 | ||
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| Hey Mark, The 99 10-10 and JJ always, as my 4 year old says, "make me a headache." I really think it depends on your position. If you are EP, I would be much more inclined to raise because you will knock out some players every time and thus improve your odds even though u are out of position. If you are in late position, with as you said 6 callers, then you may want to raise just to gain table control after the flop. Generally, LLHE players will "check to the raiser" after the flop. We as competent players (well at least in the process of becoming competent) know that this is a mistake, but it usually happens. If someone then bets into you, you know they probably have that Ace you are referring to. If other players call, then you know you probably aren't boss anymore. However, if there are that many callers, I don't think it is wrong to limp for cheap. Good luck out there. DJpoker | ||
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