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Server Time: 12/1/2008 8:00:13 PM PACIFIC |
 Earnings: Ring or Tourney, Barry T, 4. Aug 2003 12:39 | ||
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| Hi. In the thread "Who is a pro" we went off on a discussion of earnings. I listed whatI consider typical earnings for a 30-60 pro (between $40-$75/hr depending on game and skill). There was some discussion, then Slate said: Wow I thought the hourly would be much higher. So where is the best poker money?TheTournaments? I have no facts here, but that has never stopped me from stating an opinion. RIng game pros actually make the hourlly rates I claim. I have talked to enough, and seen evidence. Tournament players are by and large losers. Even those few who are ahead if you just deduct entry fees (and it is very few indeed) are not ahead by much if you also count travel expenses. The guys who WIN multiple tournaments every year make money. Itis impossible to figure hourly rate, however, because the hours are unpredictable, and you do not know whether to count just table hours, or travel hours and so on. But I have been to a lot of tournaments (not to play in them) and I see the same people playing in a lot of them, and they may have a payday once in a while, but they are clearly overall losers. And even the very best, like TJ, frequently use backers to help even out the huge swings. I spoke to Mike Sexton, who has certainly won his share of tournaments,. He said if he had it to do over again, he would pick the cash game route. Steady money, with no huge droughts. If $60/hr (which is $120,000 per year if you play a 2000 hour full time year) is not enough, you can always give lessons! BarryT | ||
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| Re: Earnings: Ring or Tourney, Eaglesfan1, 4. Aug 2003 12:47 | ||
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| I remember seeing on WPT, they said the average pot in Las Vegas is 10,000$. And I thought HOLY HELL these poker players must make a ton of money!!! Now thinking back, it must have said the average JACKPOT is 10,000... Haha Im stupid... | ||
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| Re: Earnings: Ring or Tourney, Roy Cooke, 4. Aug 2003 13:00 | ||
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| Wow...Let me get in on this conversation......Good thread Barry :-) It is my opinion that very few players do well in tournaments over the course of time....People get mesmerized by the big payouts, but forget what the entry fees are to play all major tournaments over the course of a year...Travel is not cheap either...I remember Mike Sexton once told me he was CardPlayer tournament player of the year and after expenses he won less than $80K. Another issue with tournaments is if you win $600K one year, you are taxed on it, then if you lose $200K the next year you cannot carry that loss forward. Swings like that are NOT unusual to tournament players.....If you want to play tournaments your best bet is to get a good deal from a backer.. I think Barry's numbers as far as ring games are accurate.....If you play 80-160 you might average $125/hr..... If you are looking for glory....Be a tournament player....If you are looking for consistent cash......work the ring games! Roy Cooke on 4. Aug 2003 12:39 Barry T wrote: > Hi. In the thread "Who is a pro" we went off on a discussion of earnings. I > listed whatI consider typical earnings for a 30-60 pro (between $40-$75/hr > depending on game and skill). There was some discussion, then Slate said: > > Wow I thought the hourly would be much higher. > > So where is the best poker money?TheTournaments? > > I have no facts here, but that has never stopped me from stating an opinion. > RIng game pros actually make the hourlly rates I claim. I have talked to > enough, and seen evidence. Tournament players are by and large losers. Even > those few who are ahead if you just deduct entry fees (and it is very few > indeed) are not ahead by much if you also count travel expenses. > > The guys who WIN multiple tournaments every year make money. Itis impossible > to figure hourly rate, however, because the hours are unpredictable, and you do > not know whether to count just table hours, or travel hours and so on. But I > have been to a lot of tournaments (not to play in them) and I see the same > people playing in a lot of them, and they may have a payday once in a while, but > they are clearly overall losers. > > And even the very best, like TJ, frequently use backers to help even out the > huge swings. > > I spoke to Mike Sexton, who has certainly won his share of tournaments,. He > said if he had it to do over again, he would pick the cash game route. Steady > money, with no huge droughts. > > If $60/hr (which is $120,000 per year if you play a 2000 hour full time year) > is not enough, you can always give lessons! > > BarryT > | ||
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| Re: Earnings: Ring or Tourney, stdioh, 5. Aug 2003 13:49 | ||
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| Move to Canada, gamble in the USA. Pay no income tax on poker winnings. | ||
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| Re: Earnings: Ring or Tourney, noiseboy, 4. Aug 2003 13:10 | ||
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| I've heard this "tournament players lose money" argument many times, and the case that people often cite is that the expenses eat up most or all of what you would make. While this is true of the "travel around and play only the big tournaments" type players, I know for a fact that you can make pretty decent money sticking to small tourneys at local B&Ms and playing online Sit and Go's or multi-table tourneys. In both cases your opposition is mostly weaker and your expenses are much lower. The reason that the TJ's of the world are only playing the BIG tournaments, is that since they have backers, it is a freeroll for them with a chance for a big score. Anyway, I can't argue the fact that the fluctuations of a tournament player will be higher than that of a grind-it-out ring game player; however, I do think that a tournament "middle class" exists in the main areas where lots of smaller tourneys are available like LS and LV, and perhaps online as well. Just my two cents. | ||
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| Re: Earnings: Ring or Tourney, 4 POKER, 4. Aug 2003 13:20 | ||
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| I agree Barry.....Roy. Many people don't realize that even when someone does get a big payout, (speaking of your regular "pro" tournament players), that they also buy-in to *many* other events as well during the entire year and never even get in the money. So when you factor that in with all the entry fees that it will cost them and all the traveling expenses, it's not as good as it seems. The most consistent winners when vs. pro ring game player and pro tournament player will definitely be the ring game player. Most people who just play in tournaments are overall money losers........it just looks more glamorous.......and for many of them, they're not even buying into the tournaments themselves so if and when they *do* place in the money....so much of their earn is spread out to the backers that put them in there in the first place. I know that at this years WSOP event, that Cloutier had approached many people to take "pieces" of him in the tournament, and why? Well I'll just tell you one of the reasons.......it's because he doesn't have the money to buy in for himself, and yes, that is due to other "things" as well, but the glamour that everyone sees with these big name tournament players is not often the true picture. If you play professionally (ring games) and can play in limits that are *high enough* and are a consistent winner, IMHO you'll show much better long term results. | ||
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| Re: Earnings: Ring or Tourney, DJpoker, 4. Aug 2003 14:49 | ||
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| 4 Poker said "for many of them, they're not even buying into the tournaments themselves so if and when they *do* place in the money....so much of their earn is spread out to the backers that put them in there in the first place." Even Moneymaker who earned his seat through Poker Stars had to borrow 4,000 just to get to the event. I am very curious about this sponsor thing because I play with a guy who says he is sponsored by a company and I feel like they are wasting their money LMAO. How does one go about getting sponsored? Do you just have to find the right person or do you prove yourself or a combo of both? | ||
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| Re: Earnings: Ring or Tourney, 4 POKER, 4. Aug 2003 15:03 | ||
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| on 4. Aug 2003 14:49 DJpoker wrote: > 4 Poker said "for many of them, they're not even buying into the tournaments themselves so > if and when they *do* place in the money....so much of their earn is spread out to the > backers that put them in there in the first place." > > Even Moneymaker who earned his seat through Poker Stars had to borrow 4,000 just to get > to the event. I am very curious about this sponsor thing because I play with a guy who > says he is sponsored by a company and I feel like they are wasting their money LMAO. How > does one go about getting sponsored? Do you just have to find the right person or do you > prove yourself or a combo of both? Hey DJ, Good question. It could be a combo of both. Some people are just fortunate enough to know of someone who has the cash to back them in these tournaments but don't necessarily want to participate themselves. But players like Cloutier, Hellmuth, Flack and some others are actually backed by successful poker players that are doing this as more of an investment type thing, but they would have to prove themselves consistently enough or these people would not continue to back them. Ted Forrest who is a very high limit ring game player (played alot against Larry Flint in Cali, and has played in limits that were unbelievable to even phathom playing in), had backed Hellmuth and Flack in many of the big events, including the ones at the WSOP. Not sure if he still does, but that's how it was 2 years ago to my knowledge. | ||
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| Re: Earnings: Ring or Tourney, Jav, 4. Aug 2003 16:04 | ||
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| This is what I don't understand. If someone like Phil Hellmuth or Coutier isn't confident enough to put up their own money in a tournament, why would another person or player have that kind of confidence in them. And if they don't make enough money to put up the entry for themselves, then what the hell are they doing playing in the tournament? Especially the example you used about a very successful ring game player putting up the money. I don't see why he, of all people, would risk his own poker bankroll on another player. Are the great players profitable over a single tournament, but unprofitable over multiple tournaments (when you include travel, room and board, etc..? | ||
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| Re: Earnings: Ring or Tourney, 4 POKER, 4. Aug 2003 21:23 | ||
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| on 4. Aug 2003 16:04 Jav wrote: > This is what I don't understand. If someone like Phil Hellmuth or Coutier isn't confident enough to > put up their own money in a tournament, why would another person or player have that kind of > confidence in them. > > And if they don't make enough money to put up the entry for themselves, then what the hell are they > doing playing in the tournament? > > Especially the example you used about a very successful ring game player putting up the money. I > don't see why he, of all people, would risk his own poker bankroll on another player. Are the great > players profitable over a single tournament, but unprofitable over multiple tournaments (when you > include travel, room and board, etc..? Jav, Players like Hellmuth and Cloutier are *very confident* in their play but there are outside factors that also enter the picture. For many of them,(not all)....... even when they place in the money in a big event.......they will then play in very high limit ring games and if there not successful there, (and for many of them their ring game play is not nearly as strong as their tournament abilities), thus leaving them in a very bad financial situation. There's also other vices, unfortunately for many players, even professionals that have problems with other types of gambling like playing craps for exceptional amounts of money....sports betting, and things of that nature, that can actually part them from the money they may have earned from a big event. That combined with having to invest so much up-front money just to enter these big tournaments can leave them cash poor. That's why so many of them will have backers because even though they may not have the strong willpower to hold onto their money or if they chose to then play in limits where they're not able to book consistent wins........they still are skilled enough and talented enough to place in many tournaments. What they chose to do with their money *after* that, is up to them.....but when someone like Ted Forrest (and many others) chose to back these guys, they really are making a good investment because players like Hellmuth and Flack have been quite successful in their tournament careers thus far, and they *have* made money for their backers as well. It may not seem possible to win say $600,000 in one year of tournament play only to give a big chunk of it back, but if you were to play in very high limit poker ring games and went on a bad run or due to a lack of regard for the money that you *do* have........you can go broke........it does happen. It's not as glamorous as many would like to believe it is and what you may observe on TV is not necessarily what really "is". Not all those players are as disciplined with everything else like they are when they play in the tournaments. Some of them *do* manage their money very well while others may not.....it's just the way it is, their human just like anybody else. And just because they may be extremely gifted in poker, doesn't mean that they all have the ability to hold on to it. But keep in mind.....people backing other players, ........borrowing and lending money is very common in the poker world amongst many players....even the real experinced ones. It's something that's actually quite normal (LOL), because poker players *will* help other poker players. 4 POKER | ||
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| Re: Earnings: Ring or Tourney, Jav, 5. Aug 2003 10:24 | ||
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| You would think that the discipline and patience it takes to play poker well could be carried over to other parts of their life. But then again, it's not just poker players that can have those types of problems.. | ||
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| Re: Earnings: Ring or Tourney, DJpoker, 4. Aug 2003 18:56 | ||
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| Thanks 4poker. I guess I'll start looking for some backers. I actually started ring games with my friend staking me $300. I've paid him off and then some and I'm now building a bankroll. So I guess in a way I'm backed LMAO. Take care, DJpoker | ||
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| Re: Earnings: Ring or Tourney, 4 POKER, 4. Aug 2003 22:36 | ||
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| on 4. Aug 2003 18:56 DJpoker wrote: > Thanks 4poker. I guess I'll start looking for some backers. I actually started ring games with my > friend staking me $300. I've paid him off and then some and I'm now building a bankroll. So I > guess in a way I'm backed LMAO. Take care, DJpoker Hey DJ, That's actually nothing to laugh about....really. There are players that are backed in ring games and for some of them it *does* start out at a lower limit, but it doesn't mean that it can't be a very positive thing for you either. This may be a very good experience for you while allowing you to build up a nice bankroll for yourself. Just know exactly what you and your backer have come to agreements on when it comes to splitting the wins, making up losses and things like that. Good luck. 4P- | ||
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| Re: Backers, DJpoker, 4. Aug 2003 22:53 | ||
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| Hey 4Poker, What is the usual scenario? I have had two other guys ask me about giving me money to play for them. At this point, I have a working bankroll and no longer need start-up money, but stakes could provide enough for me to move up a level. Example: Let's say I have roughly 4K for my bankroll. The two potential stakers want to give me 1k each. That of course bumps me up to 6k with 66% being my money and 33% being the backers. Would they each be entitiled to 16.5% of all future earnings or a set period or would we work out some other arrangement? I am no stranger to splitting the costs of football pools and other bets, but that is pretty straightforward. If you put in 25% of the bet, you get 25% of the win. Is it the same with poker? I ask because in most movies, ie rounders & color of money, the staker usually gets more of the money. However, in those cases, the player didn't post any of his money. Thanks for your response. Talk to you soon. DJpoker | ||
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| Re: Backers, 4 POKER, 4. Aug 2003 23:47 | ||
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| Hey DJ, First off, the 4K (for example) that is yours, should stay yours unless you're going "partners". If someone wants to "back" you however, which means 100% their money up front, then this is one way it can be handled. (but before I mention it, you *did* say that two guys wanted to give you 1K a piece and you probably should deal with one backer at a time, it would make things alot easier). If they want to both come up with 1K a piece for you, then let them pool their money together and they can square their profits and/or losses amongst themselves, while you'll just be dealing with one of them. The other can be like a "silent partner". Anyway.......this is one way. Someone gives you a thousand dollars. Come to an agreement *first* when deciding what the pay cut will be,....50/50, 60/40, whatever. Usually in the higher limits, the backer will get a bigger percentage than the player, but in the lower limits, it will probably be split 50/50. Say you win $800 for the week. You'll get $400 and your backer will get $400. If you lose the thousand dollars, then in order for you to be in the "black" again (plus side).........you'll have to make up the thousand dollars first, before your backer will give you the 50% paycut. But you'll still need to discuss as to "when" he will get his cut (after one week, after each session, etc.) .......... how long of a time period do you go until the two of you actually sit down and square away everything? Talk this all out with your backer if you plan on making this a long term thing. Do what you feel is right for you as well as your backer, and make sure he trusts you completely,.........with the money and your decisions as a poker player. | ||
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| Re: Backers, ezcheese, 7. Aug 2003 14:31 | ||
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| based off of the two of you, i'd say that if you post 4k of your own and 1k of the backers and you're giving him 50/50 you are getting screwed... if it were me... i'd take the 2k from them and not use any of my own money... if I lose it then I go to my money, if I'm winning my backers get 25% each... I'm doing the work, they are gambling as if betting on a horse... if I lose, I'll pay it back (maybe not depending on the agreement)... but I'm playing with THEIR money to make them money... i'm not going to be using my money to make money for them. | ||
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| Re: Backers, Roy Cooke, 7. Aug 2003 15:03 | ||
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| If your deal with your backer is not a win-win situation.....then you are just hustling the backer! Roy Cooke on 7. Aug 2003 14:31 ezcheese wrote: > based off of the two of you, i'd say that if you post 4k of your own and 1k of the backers and you're giving him 50/50 > you are getting screwed... if it were me... i'd take the 2k from them and not use any of my own money... if I lose it > then I go to my money, if I'm winning my backers get 25% each... I'm doing the work, they are gambling as if betting on > a horse... if I lose, I'll pay it back (maybe not depending on the agreement)... but I'm playing with THEIR money to > make them money... i'm not going to be using my money to make money for them. | ||
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| Re: Backers, 4 POKER, 8. Aug 2003 00:56 | ||
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| Hey ezcheese, I think you must've misread the post somewhere. I was discussing with DJ to *keep* the 4k, because that money is money that he already possessed before the poker "deal" with his backer was discussed, and THEN if the backer wants to back him, then he can put up however much money he wanted to and then they would have to discuss first what the cut was going to be. Doing in that way is completely fair to both parties.......just keep in mind, what I was saying is that an agreement must be made first and then if both parties are satisfied, then a deal could be made. This way both parties are fully aware of the situation and nobody gets hurt/cheated. Trust me ezcheese, no backer in their right mind is going to give someone 100% of the money to play in a game and then if the player loses it, he won't be entitled to pay it back FIRST until he is able to get a profit from any future earn. The backer would have to be a real sucker to do it the way you were inclining. It's not like betting on a horse and if you lose, you lose. No. That is totally unfair to the backer even if the fact is that the player is "doing all the work". Don't forget, without the backer, the player doesn't play. But that is why agreements must be made ahead of time to avoid things like that. Everyting must be a win-win situation for both parties or somethings not working right here with your agreement, or lackthereof. I hope this clarifies things for you some. | ||
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| Re: Earnings: Ring or Tourney, Guru, 4. Aug 2003 14:23 | ||
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| I feel a little naive now. I always thought that top pros like Chan, Ngyuen, Hellmuth, Lederer, etc.. made enough money in ultra-high limit ring games to pay for the tournaments they play in every year. Of course, with the prize money reaching new levels with the surge in popularity these days, winning the right one can pay for a lot of tournaments. Also, it's becoming increasingly easy for "name" pros to find other sources of income by endorsing sites and products, writing books, and so on. Which leads me to another question. I've been noticing that more and more players in TV coverage are wearing clothing that advertises a particular site. Is this a part of an overall endorsement deal, or do these sites back the players in exchange for being a walking billboard? It seems to me like it would be a pretty good deal for the sites. | ||
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| Re: Earnings: Ring or Tourney, DJpoker, 4. Aug 2003 15:00 | ||
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| Hey Barry, Thanks for changing the thread. So if I have this right, then I am winning about 3.5 - 4 BB an hour playing 3-6. I went back and calculated my earnings and divided by hours played. The total worked out to $23. Here is what has me concerned. Am I winning too much? I realize how absurd the question sounds, but could I be playing too loose and just be on a lucky streak of cards? I only play Group 1-6 hands based on position. I will occasionally lower those standards if I'm the button or next to last. Anyway, I'm off to play. Good luck out there. DJpoker | ||
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| Re: Earnings: Ring or Tourney, Roy Cooke, 4. Aug 2003 15:36 | ||
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| Hi DJ I have NEVER won too much :-) That said, while higher win rates are attainable in lower limits relative to that limit....over 3 big bets an hour is tough to sustain over the course of time....that is a VERY big spread in ability between yourself and your opponents! Roy Cooke on 4. Aug 2003 15:00 DJpoker wrote: > Hey Barry, > Thanks for changing the thread. So if I have this right, then I am winning about > 3.5 - 4 BB an hour playing 3-6. I went back and calculated my earnings and divided > by hours played. The total worked out to $23. > > Here is what has me concerned. Am I winning too much? I realize how absurd the > question sounds, but could I be playing too loose and just be on a lucky streak of > cards? I only play Group 1-6 hands based on position. I will occasionally lower > those standards if I'm the button or next to last. Anyway, I'm off to play. Good > luck out there. DJpoker | ||
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| Re: Earnings: Ring or Tourney, Barry T, 4. Aug 2003 16:18 | ||
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| Hi. In a B&M cardroom, somewhere under 3 bets per hour is probably the theoretical maximum. The reason is if the game is that good, with lots of players seeing the flop and calling all the way, then the game will be so slow that you not be in enough pots to earn mmore than that. Are your numbers over a long period of time? If you tell me 5,000 hours, than that is probably what your hourly rate really is. But after 2000 hours, depending on your standard deviation, you true rate may be only half that, or ever less. And after 500 hours, the number is pretty meaningless. But if you tell me your total hours and standard deviation, I will be a better position to tell you what your rate means. BarryT | ||
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| Re: Earnings: Ring or Tourney, DJpoker, 4. Aug 2003 18:51 | ||
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| Hey Barry, Thanks to you and Ray for your quick comments. I am almost to 500 hours, so yes my numbers are only a small sample. I was just wondering because so many say that $23 an hour seems high for 3-6 and obviously I have not put in enough time to know. I just returned from a 4 hour session and came home up $155 or just short of $39 an hour. I won a kill pot with pocket JJ that I capped pre-flop w/ 3 callers and they held up to unders and a K on the river. That was a nice pull. Anyway, I honestly believe that I play at the loosest B&M in America. It is the norm for 5-6 players to see the flop and 2 of those will call you to the cows come home. I need to take a UPFer to verify if the place I play at is crazy or just my imagination. Since you now know my hours, how long should I stay at 3-6 before I move up? Considering my circumstances, I think it is prudent to stay put and improve my abilities to read hands and knowing when to bet, raise, etc. Thanks for all of the input. DJpoker The B&M only spreads 3-6, 4-8 and 3-6, 4-8 omaha. | ||
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| Re: Earnings: Ring or Tourney, palman, 4. Aug 2003 19:36 | ||
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| For serious online players.... I would recomment getting a computer setup with 2 monitors, where you can drag things (like a poker screen from one side to the other) thus enabling you to play 2 tables at a time more effectively. I personally have never been able to be successful playing 2 tables at once on one monitor, but with 2 its much better and more profitable. Perhaps a little off topic, but a good suggestion to increase earn nevertheless. | ||
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| Re: Earnings: Ring or Tourney, stdioh, 5. Aug 2003 13:55 | ||
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| I used to work on the trading floor for Merrill Lynch. I had about 5 unix boxes and a PC on my desk at all time and a number of them were dual head systems. I had monitors everywhere and I had keyboards stacked up in trays balanced on various things. My whole setup looked like the command centre in the ship on The Matrix (of course this was before that movie came out). They called me, "The organist" ... you just reminded me of that with your talk of multiple screens of poker. Thanks. | ||
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| Re: Earnings: Ring or Tourney, Barry T, 4. Aug 2003 20:07 | ||
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| Hi. First, I recommend you get StatKing, and start recording your results. You will learn a great deal about your results,and be much better positioned to understand the data. Note that StatKing only deals with money results, not hands. It costs arond $30. If you do not live near a supply place, one place you can buy it is www.conjelco.com. Second, I am haveing a hard time figuring out how you get practice reading hands in a game where everyone is calling. Yes, I am kidding a little, but this game is not preparing you for very much. So I would move up (you can certainly afford to take a shot) and see how it feels. While $23/hr may prove difficcult to sustain, I think we can safely say you are a winning player. Just do not be disappointed if your results in your new game are not as gaudy. BarryT | ||
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| Re: Earnings: Ring or Tourney, DJpoker, 4. Aug 2003 21:37 | ||
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| Thanks for the endorsement Barry as I know you are a great player. I think I'll hang out at my current level for another 200 or so hours and then make a move to 5-10 and see how that goes. I guess I am curious if I can maintain my dollar rate for additional hours. When I do make the move, could any of you give me the best spot to play from the following choices. I am about an 45-90 minutes away from all of these B&M: Commerce, Bicycle, San Manuel, Bakersfield (I think it is called Golden West), Hustler, Hollywood Park. Thanks again Barry, 4Poker, Roy, eta al. for the advice. I look forward to garnering more knowledge from all of you. DJpoker | ||
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| Dammit Barry., stdioh, 5. Aug 2003 13:46 | ||
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| That is scary and it hurts and confuses me :) I think that you are neglecting one important form of tournament and that is the online cheapo tournament. When you can play 4 hour long online tournaments at $50+5 against the right lineup, while simultaneously playing a couple of cash ring games, the money can be quite alright. As for the big tourney players, what about guys like Hellmuth, Negeanu, Men Nguyen, etc? The guys who are on the cardplayer leader board every year - guys who are constantly moneying? I'm sure that those guys rarely see an unprofitable year and can imagine that they are rather safe as long as they keep a good bankroll. | ||
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| Re: Dammit Barry., Barry T, 5. Aug 2003 15:24 | ||
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| Hi. I was wondering where you were:-) You are right of course. On-line tournaments have a terrific future, and could easily be profitable for the good player. First, there is no tipping, so you do not give up a sizable percentage of your win (which is already diluted by the entrance fee). Second, there are no travel expenses. Third, you can play several in a day, and at least try to get into some form of tournament long run within a year. And yes, you can also smooth out the swings by playing cash games on-line at the same time. There are live tournament pros who make a profit, and possibly a significant one. But there are very few compared to the "name" players who do not make expenses most years, much less the $50,000 per year minimum that any pro worthy of the name shoud be making. My point was that given a choice, a top player would be far better off concentrating on cash games, if his goal was profit and not fame. I stick with it. BarryT | ||
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| Re: Dammit Barry., stdioh, 6. Aug 2003 08:50 | ||
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| Thanks a lot for your insights into tourney professionalism Barry. Part of me has always thought that I could win one tourney, call in my tourney bankroll, and give a shot at real hardcore tournament play - but I think you've convinced me right here that if I did win a decent sized tourney the best thing I could do is buy a house :) | ||
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