|
||
|
||
|
Server Time: 12/1/2008 8:35:10 PM PACIFIC |
 Dr. Jekyl ... Mr Hyde, Guru, 1. Aug 2003 08:00 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| So let's use my poker education to look at the difference between your ring game play and tournament play.... I play exclusively at UB for the time being. At the beginning of the month I had an amazing tournament run where I made three final tables in a row (including our own UPF tourney and a Super Satellite bid on UB). I realize that making the three tables in a row had some to do with luck and some to do with skill. I can't expect to make the final tables with that regularity all the time, even at my best. During that same week, I got pummeled in the ring games, losing a large chunk of my little bankroll. It got so bad that I realized I needed to take a couple of days of with a new poker book I had just bought and retool my game. I managed to find many of the leaks in my game (I had basically strayed from good discipline). Every since, I have been playing great poker in the ring games, having made my whole bankroll back and doubling it (again it wasn't huge). The point is that I'm playing good, solid, poker. The bad news, I now seem to be playing terrible tourney poker. I'm getting bounced much earlier than I should, I haven't moneyed in two weeks (including SnG's), and my confidence is shook. I know good strategy for tourney's: 1) Play tight early and let the fishes bounce themselves 2) Loosen up in the later rounds 3) Steal some blinds when others are tightening up 4) Don't be afraid to take a couple chances here and there. 5) Play good hands. I think that I'm now in a position where the confidence factor is making me hesitate to make moves when I need to. So here are some questions.... 1) Might it be that I'm just having a bad streak, it will work itself out, and I'm just making too big a deal about it? 2) Could the fact that I tightened up my ring game be making me too tight come tourney time? If so, how much looser do you think you play a tourney than a ring game.... or do you at all? 3) How do each of you prepare differently for the different types of play required of ring games and tourney's? Keep in mind that I play low limit ring games and NL tourney's... how does that affect mentality? 4) What other insights does the group have? Thanks, Guru | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: Dr. Jekyl ... Mr Hyde, Wren, 1. Aug 2003 09:03 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| I think that you're probably just having a bad tournament streak. You seem to have a pretty good grasp of proper tournament strategy, and you've had good results in the past. I've seen you play, and you know what you're doing. Yeah, switching gears (when moving from a ring game to a tournament, or vice versa) is obviously important, which is why I don't usually play ring games at the same time as tournaments. Just make sure you're feeling focused and clear-headed when you're playing, and think through each decision carefully. Know the tendencies of the other players at the table. And just keep practising. Good luck! on 1. Aug 2003 08:00 Guru wrote: > So let's use my poker education to look at the difference between your ring game > play and tournament play.... > > I play exclusively at UB for the time being. At the beginning of the month I > had an amazing tournament run where I made three final tables in a row > (including our own UPF tourney and a Super Satellite bid on UB). I realize that > making the three tables in a row had some to do with luck and some to do with > skill. I can't expect to make the final tables with that regularity all the > time, even at my best. During that same week, I got pummeled in the ring games, > losing a large chunk of my little bankroll. > > It got so bad that I realized I needed to take a couple of days of with a new > poker book I had just bought and retool my game. I managed to find many of the > leaks in my game (I had basically strayed from good discipline). Every since, I > have been playing great poker in the ring games, having made my whole bankroll > back and doubling it (again it wasn't huge). The point is that I'm playing good, > solid, poker. > > The bad news, I now seem to be playing terrible tourney poker. I'm getting > bounced much earlier than I should, I haven't moneyed in two weeks (including > SnG's), and my confidence is shook. I know good strategy for tourney's: > 1) Play tight early and let the fishes bounce themselves > 2) Loosen up in the later rounds > 3) Steal some blinds when others are tightening up > 4) Don't be afraid to take a couple chances here and there. > 5) Play good hands. > > I think that I'm now in a position where the confidence factor is making me > hesitate to make moves when I need to. So here are some questions.... > 1) Might it be that I'm just having a bad streak, it will work itself out, and > I'm just making too big a deal about it? > 2) Could the fact that I tightened up my ring game be making me too tight come > tourney time? If so, how much looser do you think you play a tourney than a ring > game.... or do you at all? > 3) How do each of you prepare differently for the different types of play > required of ring games and tourney's? Keep in mind that I play low limit ring > games and NL tourney's... how does that affect mentality? > 4) What other insights does the group have? > > Thanks, > Guru | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: Dr. Jekyl ... Mr Hyde, PBG, 1. Aug 2003 09:34 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| You see those Olympian track and field stars with MUSCLES all over the place. Huge shoulders, legs like tree trunks. They're fast. The starting gun goes off and all you see is dust. Ever wonder how they'd perform in let's say an ultramarathon (100 miles)? I can tell you they would hit the wall by mile 15 if not sooner. It's not because they don't know how to run. It's because they only know two speeds (fast and faster) and haven't been conditioned to run moderately. Now stick a marathoner in the hundred yard dash. That marathoner would be smoked like an Easter ham. And it wouldn't because he didn't know how to run either. Again, it would be about conditioning. Same thing with poker. I think it's the rare individual who can play ring AND tournament well. I almost said 'equally', but there are plenty of players who suck at both. Figure out where your strengths/weaknesses are and play what's most favorable to them. | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: Dr. Jekyl ... Mr Hyde, stdioh, 1. Aug 2003 09:44 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| The thing about bad play in tournaments is that it is sometimes rewarded. I would say that in a 300 player tournament with 250 decidedly bad players, there will be 1 or 2 who make the final table by virtue of being really lucky and really gutsy. The guys who throw their chips around like drunken sailors can get hands too. The thing is that these players are generally unable to place in the big money. If you're constantly either building a huge stack fast or busting out fast it is often an indication of wild play. You should very rarely double up early on if you are playing well. | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: Dr. Jekyl ... Mr Hyde, pt_Gatsby, 1. Aug 2003 10:24 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| I have been thinking about this a great deal lately, though I'm the other way around (horrible ring player, I am. For a while I thought I was ok, now I have managed to lose all my SNG profit! To hell with those tables, I say.) Anyway, as a new player, these are just my recent expierences/thoughts. 1) Might it be that I'm just having a bad streak, it will work itself out, and I'm just making too big a deal about it? I often question that myself. What a friend and I have done is a sharing of hands so that we can discuss the plays we made (critical plays as well as just general play). Its surprising how much insight you get from having someone critique your playing! Being forced to answer the question "Why" to someone else is very powerful. No self delusion allowed... Just so long as you are questioning - and hopefully reviewing your hands - it should become clear. 2) Could the fact that I tightened up my ring game be making me too tight come tourney time? If so, how much looser do you think you play a tourney than a ring game.... or do you at all? I don't know the answer to that - I can say that while I seem to be a very decent tourny/SnG player (relative to my own play!), I'm a horrible ring player. For me, the closest I have come to identifying the difference is that I play to win and just win. I don't play with positive EV over an indefinate period. In a tournament I have a set goal and try to run an optimal strategy... while in a ring game, you are just playing an open ended strategy. All the additional information in tournament games (chip size, 0 payback, how long till in the money, blind stealing, increasing blinds...) seems to require a different attitude entirely. In a tourny, being tight can be a liability, to a certain degree. It requires you to, or at least half of the players, to overplay a hand that would have positive EV in the long run. AA running over AK, or any variation on this. Also, one critical issue is table size. SNGs especially have a rather dynamic feel to them... At least, I play them that way. I particularly love being able to create a table image depending on the cards that I'm dealt, and then going against it when the time is right. This is very true in the shorthanded games, which I play nearly exclusively (6ppl). 4) What other insights does the group have? I'm sure the pros will be able to give you more expierenced answers, but your rules for tournaments: 1) Play tight early and let the fishes bounce themselves I keep hearing this, and I continue to feel that it is incorrect, fundamentally. The strategy can work, but you are losing a major advantage none the less. If you believe 1/3 of the table are fishes, and you can get 1/3 of those chips, you have doubled up. On the other hand, if you are part of the other 1/3 that uses this strategy, you are slightly below even, meaning you are now at a disadvantage. I don't mean you should play crap and you want to avoid coin flips, same as always, but you must stay in the game. I think this rule developped early on poker party where the 'fishes' were utterly nuts. Since then, on UB anyway, I haven't seen such players often. 2) Loosen up in the later rounds Its my belief still that these rules came about for very unique circumstances and are very misleading. There are some optimal strategies, but like most game theories, they only apply in a very narrow environment. In short, you are there to win and with these rules, anyone who plays the minority game (ie: doing opposite from what you suggest) has an advantage over you. When you loosen up with bigger blinds, but didn't try to take chips early... someone who has the chips will be taking your blinds+ instead, just as you loosen up. Note that these rules all operate on the same minority game theory. Early you stay tight; they play loose. Later you play loose; they play tight (rule 3). They play aggressive, you play passive (? early, normally)... and then you play aggressive, they play passive (? blind stealing phase). The dominant strategy will be a very (useless!) simple line: play the optimal strategy at any given time. They can't be written done because the players, your position, the cards... everything that matters changes from table to table, if not from hand to hand. 3) Steal some blinds when others are tightening up What happens if they play the same strategy? Worse, what happens if you have some slowplayers? I use that exact strategy when people get aggressive. The number of people who are willing to keep 'buying' astound me. Remember, everyone must do this just to survive - otherwise one person becomes dominant. You depend on the power of the cards and the players will note this. People will suddenly start using it against you... 4) Don't be afraid to take a couple chances here and there. Fear will defeat you, no question about it. When you commit to a strategy, you must be willing to accept all the possible outcomes. You have to do it regardless... But at the same time, you need to measure risk and reward. You also must prevent the opponent from doing so, often with a combination of slowplay or other similar strategies. It works only when you can instill fear, so being shorthanded or just out of the money means more aggression can be better, while you don't want to slowplay passive players. Avoiding conflips is a good idea, none the less. Too often your hand is NOT a coinflip from theirs, such as the infamous AA vs AK! Good hand does not translate to better hand... 5) Play good hands. Unquestionably. The worst mistake is trying to buy the pot with bad cards (especially early positions!), then when the person calls, trying it again. It seems to make sense and it can work but on those times where it doesn't, you have normally sacrificed the tournament. At least play hands that are decent (shorthanded making it easier to decide, I think). | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: Dr. Jekyl ... Mr Hyde, tpir90036, 1. Aug 2003 10:36 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| i have been asking myself a lot of the same questions later. i play solid tight-aggressive for the first hour and very rarely have a huge stack by the time the blinds get to 50/100. a few failed steal attempts later i am down to 1500 with the blinds going up to 75/150. there are lots of good tournament books that talk about lowering raising standards, etc. but it's the on the flop play where i truly suffer. here is an example: i am one of the button with A7o and i go for a blind steal raise with only the BB defending. the flop comes A-J-3 and the BB comes out with a pot-sized bet. does he have a better kicker? is he gunning with middle pair? stone cold bluffing? i have a lot of problems reading on-line opponents and i would end up laying this down more often than not. at this stage of the tournament you can't afford too many botched steal raises. any thoughts?? | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| POKER FORUM HOME | POKER FORUM | LINK TO US | ARCHIVE | ONLINE POKER | Copyright 2002, United Poker Forum |
|
Getting Started |
UPF Tournaments |
Poker News, Views, Rules |
Poker Strategy & Psychology |
Money and Bankroll Poker Bonuses & Promotions | World Series of Poker (WSOP) | Play Online Poker | Poker Odds & Statistics | Tournament Poker | Poker Books, Videos & Learning Tools Looking for a Poker Game | Poker Bad Beats | Not Quite Poker | Quizzes and Polls | Forum Suggestions & Bugs |
|
|
|
|
Interesting Links: Online Poker | Free Poker Games | United Poker Network |
|