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Server Time: 3/16/2010 7:55:05 AM PACIFIC |
 Correct play or just lucky?, Frank Grimes, 31. Jul 2003 11:48 | ||
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| Playing 5-10 HE at a B&M, I'm in middle position holding 7h9h, limp in after early callers, a few more callers, a raise before the button and a reraise on the button. Preflop betting gets capped with eight players in total. Flop comes 8-6-3 rainbow, SB bets, everyone calls, button raises and all but one call. Turn comes Q, board is still complete rainbow, all check to player just before button who bets, button raises, I call, original bettor reraises, button calls, player before me and I both call. So...river comes a 10, making my straight. Player before me checks, I bet, puzzling the last two players, who call, first player then folds. Late player had QQ and button had 88. Aside from the fact that I won, my questions are these: 1) Was I correct to stay in preflop? This wasn't a particularly loose table. My reasoning was that all the preflop action suggested a lot of people on high cards, so I was depending on the flop to hit; had it not, I would have been out. Once the flop hit, I was getting monster pot odds to hit a 10 or 5, neither of which helped anyone else. 2) Should I have played more aggressively with the open-ended straight? I had put at least one of the LP players on a set and the player just before me trying to draw out something which didn't concern me. Based on the action I could reasonably assume no one was playing J9. Obviously I was happy to take down a big pot, but I have a nagging feeling that I just got lucky. | ||
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| Re: Correct play or just lucky?, JaggedEj, 31. Jul 2003 12:05 | ||
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| I'm new to poker, but it seems to me that you definately should not be playing that hand preflop. Limpin in middle position in a game you yourself said was tight isn't something i would probably do, but let's say you do. Then cold calling 2 bets? I know you have alot of people in the pot, but your flush draw is probably not good. You need that Straight and I'm not sure the odds are there. Would like to see more experience analysis though. | ||
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| Re: Correct play or just lucky?, Jav, 31. Jul 2003 12:38 | ||
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| I think you probably just got lucky. If you call with this hand pre-flop under those conditions frequently I think you'll lose money in the long run. Your arguement about thinking everyone had high cards is fine, but with that many people in the hand, and that much pre-flop raising, the only way you were likely going to win was by pairing both cards, hitting a flush, or hitting a straight. Since all three of those possible wins leave a reasonable chance for someone to still have a better hand, I think this is a very -EV call. After the flop, you probably had pot odds to continue to the river, but it would still be a pretty scary ride. I'd say be glad you have the money, but don't repeat this hoping it's going to happen again! | ||
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| Re: Correct play or just lucky?, ezcheese, 31. Jul 2003 12:54 | ||
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| You should have folded pre-flop for sure... After the flop hit you I would've rode it out for the straight... continue calling capped pre-flops w/ 79s and you'll be losing some money. | ||
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| Re: Correct play or just lucky?, Guru, 31. Jul 2003 13:05 | ||
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| Not to be mean, but you just got lucky. There is no reason to have stayed in with those cards, much less raised making it three to go. Those are bad starting cards. You had the low end of the straight, would have been low with a flush, and would have been dominated with trips. It was luck no one else beat you. The good news is that you seem to realize it and that is a good sign that you're learning. I recommend reading a couple of books and learning what good starting hands are. | ||
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| Re: Correct play or just lucky?, 4 POKER, 31. Jul 2003 13:21 | ||
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| Frank, It was not the correct play IMHO, regardless of the outcome. That holding will not be profitable enough if played out the same way for multiple raises pre-flop, and that's why it shouldn't be played. The part about being lucky comes after the fact so there's no need to even say that you "got lucky". Given a better circumstance and a better position, those hands will play much better, and you want to play them for a much cheaper price pre-flop. And for all those times that you do flop an open-ender and are forced to put in multiple, multiple bets......you'll see that you'll just be wasting alot of money too much of the time to achieve a +EV. | ||
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| Re: Correct play or just lucky?, shorn, 31. Jul 2003 13:14 | ||
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| Limping is fine with this holding as long as you anticipate a multi-way pot and the table is passive enough that you usually don't see a raise. However, if a lot of hands are 3-bet or capped pre-flop, you have to fold this. And, there is no way you should have called two more bets much less 3 before you saw any cards. So, the pre-flop play was bad. After you were in though and the flop came as it did, you were getting the needed odds to come along for the ride. Just know that if you do this too often, you will lose a ton of $$. | ||
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| Re: Correct play or just lucky?, Wren, 31. Jul 2003 13:17 | ||
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| First of all, given that you said this wasn't a particularly loose table, calling with 79h in mid position was a bit sketchy. Once it was capped back around to you, you really should have dropped; yes, you're right in that most of your opponents were probably on high cards, but that only moderately (at best) increases your chances of catching an excellent flop. And an EXCELLENT flop is really what you want - two pair, trips, a made straight or flush, a flush draw with a pair, the top end of an up & down straight draw. What you DON'T want to see is a marginal flop that sucks you in. What happens if the flop comes, say, 378 rainbow, with one heart? With all the money in the pot, you have pot odds to try to catch something to improve to either two pair, trips, a straight draw or a flush draw. So you decide to call one flop bet. But then it's raised. Ok, call one more. Now the turn comes a J. Not great, but you now have a gutshot, and another 7 has a pretty good chance to win it for you too. That's 6 outs - pot's big enough to call another bet. You see where this is going. It's an example of compounding mistakes - Rolf Slotboom had a good article on this in one of the previous CardPlayer issues. You make mistakes early on, and then justify continuing to stay in the hand at each point, mainly because the pot's grown so big. Playing this way is -EV. As for your other question - why would you push a straight draw if you suspect someone's on a set? The other player has the best of it here - not you. You want to draw as cheaply as possible here. on 31. Jul 2003 11:48 Frank Grimes wrote: > Playing 5-10 HE at a B&M, I'm in middle position holding 7h9h, limp in after > early callers, a few more callers, a raise before the button and a reraise on > the button. Preflop betting gets capped with eight players in total. Flop > comes 8-6-3 rainbow, SB bets, everyone calls, button raises and all but one > call. Turn comes Q, board is still complete rainbow, all check to player just > before button who bets, button raises, I call, original bettor reraises, button > calls, player before me and I both call. > > So...river comes a 10, making my straight. Player before me checks, I bet, > puzzling the last two players, who call, first player then folds. Late player > had QQ and button had 88. > > Aside from the fact that I won, my questions are these: 1) Was I correct to > stay in preflop? This wasn't a particularly loose table. My reasoning was that > all the preflop action suggested a lot of people on high cards, so I was > depending on the flop to hit; had it not, I would have been out. Once the flop > hit, I was getting monster pot odds to hit a 10 or 5, neither of which helped > anyone else. 2) Should I have played more aggressively with the open-ended > straight? I had put at least one of the LP players on a set and the player just > before me trying to draw out something which didn't concern me. Based on the > action I could reasonably assume no one was playing J9. > > Obviously I was happy to take down a big pot, but I have a nagging feeling that > I just got lucky. | ||
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| Re: Correct play or just lucky?, Frank Grimes, 31. Jul 2003 13:58 | ||
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| Thanks all for the responses. To clarify, I don't consider 7h9h good starters by any stretch. I was actually playing this hand as I was racking my chips to leave and thought I'd limp and see a flop; only because of the heavy action did I start to consider that my cards my carry some weight multiway. Lesson learned about how you can get roped into a hand. | ||
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| Re: Correct play or just lucky?, Jav, 31. Jul 2003 14:04 | ||
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| I have given ALOT of money away while racking my chips to go home. This is an area I still need to work on. There is no point to losing several bets just before you leave hoping to win one more hand. | ||
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| Re: Correct play or just lucky?, Big_Slick, 31. Jul 2003 19:51 | ||
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| There aren't enough horseshoes in the word lucky to describe that hand. | ||
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| Next time though..., dan, 1. Aug 2003 03:54 | ||
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| punish the heck outta your opponents for your own bad play and check-raise them on the river. I figure when they ask what the heck you were doing in that hand, just answer "Gambling." :) But, to agree with everyone else...you should have folded preflop, unless you live in California. | ||
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| Re: Correct play or just lucky?, Mark, 2. Aug 2003 09:00 | ||
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| No, that was not the correct play. From middle position you should have mucked that hand. I played a low-limit B&M game just last week (it's been a while) and many of the player were playing that kind of hand. Those hands are the reasons why you have such big swings. You paid 4 small bets to see a flop where your only hope of winning was a str8 (it has no flush potiential even if suited). Why not play 2-4 or 4-6 offsuit? They have the exact same potiential as far as i'm concerned. You should tighten up, even in loose games. Play strong hands and expect to be called. Don't chase with those garbage hands, cause you'll just have much bigger swings in you bankroll. mark | ||
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