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Server Time: 12/1/2008 8:01:40 PM PACIFIC |
 What are they playing?, Andrew Wells, 30. Jul 2003 19:15 | ||
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| This hold'em table had just opened starting seven handed. The player second to act who respects my game just calls. He will play lots of hands, but generally raises with appropriate ones. I have KsKc in the cutoff and raise. The player in the big blind who I don't know calls, as does the other opponent. We see the flop come down Kh 9c 4h three handed. The big blind leads out and is called. I raise and both players call for the turn which is the 9s. Again the big blind leads and is called. I raise and am called by the unknown player. Now the guy in the middle comes alive and three bets it, which I cap. We all see the Qh on the river. The board is Kh 9c 4h 9s Qh, and the player in the blind leads yet again! It's raised to me, and I make it three bets. The big blind says "I give up" but doesn't push his cards more than a few inches towards the muck. The other player calls immediately. I say "That's a fold right?" So he exposes his hand and tosses them in the muck. I show my pocket kings and they're good when the other player also shows what he had. Can you determine exactly what they were holding if I say that they played understandably? | ||
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| Re: What are they playing?, Brian462, 30. Jul 2003 19:28 | ||
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| Flush ace high & QQ? | ||
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| Re: What are they playing?, Andrew Wells, 30. Jul 2003 20:32 | ||
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| Would a reasonable player take pocket queens that far? If the player in the blind had QQ would he go to the river and muck? Would the other player have backraised on the turn without having AK beat? No one had that hand. | ||
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| Re: What are they playing?, Swagman, 30. Jul 2003 19:35 | ||
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| playing understandably..lol.. I hope understand how to play understandably someday. | ||
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| Re: What are they playing?, Andrew Wells, 30. Jul 2003 20:28 | ||
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| I mean they weren't completely off the wall with the betting action. The player in the big blind didn't have crap like Q4s. | ||
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| Re: What are they playing?, mongi, 30. Jul 2003 20:16 | ||
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| It sounds like the big blind has a flush and the other player has a nine probably A-9 suited. | ||
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| Re: What are they playing?, Andrew Wells, 30. Jul 2003 20:36 | ||
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| Those are reasonable possibilities. But why would someone who respects my play raise on the river when a very bad card for A9 hits after it was capped on the turn? | ||
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| Re: What are they playing?, Swagman, 30. Jul 2003 21:16 | ||
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| Well if I was playing in a dreamworld where everyone played poker the same way I do, there for making it completely understandable (even tho i dont completely understand how I play). Then I'd put someone chasing nut flush Ah, and someone holding Pocket Qs. Do I understand know? | ||
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| Re: What are they playing?, mongi, 30. Jul 2003 21:41 | ||
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| Well I guess he had Q9 suited. | ||
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| Re: What are they playing?, Andrew Wells, 31. Jul 2003 15:22 | ||
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| I'll agree that Q9s is possible out of the big blind, but it's not something one would expect to see from the player in the middle. Since I continued to play as fast as possible and because he respects my game, his hand is necessarily stronger than this. | ||
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| Re: What are they playing?, JaggedEj, 31. Jul 2003 15:26 | ||
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| IT also wouldn't make sense that BB would muck a Q 9 boat since he's pretty invested already. I like the K 9 middle and 44s BB BB for the flush is also very possible | ||
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| Re: What are they playing?, Andrew Wells, 31. Jul 2003 15:30 | ||
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| Your right, he would probably have had to call two bets cold on the river with nines full of queens. | ||
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| Re: What are they playing?, Andrew Wells, 31. Jul 2003 15:18 | ||
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| I didn't say they played like I do, just that all the action after having the benefit of seeing their hands made sense. QQ from either player doesn't fit this criteria due to all the action on the turn. | ||
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| Re: What are they playing?, Big_Slick, 30. Jul 2003 21:43 | ||
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| My Guess... BB had the nut flush and the other player had K-9 for the smaller full house. | ||
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| Re: What are they playing?, Andrew Wells, 31. Jul 2003 15:29 | ||
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| Nicely done Big_Slick, you are first to nail the middle player's hand correctly. He had Kd9d. It's curious that he thought his top two on the flop was strong enough to try to keep the big blind interested, but he probably didn't want me to back off or even fold something like AK or KQ here. Now having filled up on the turn and not yet making me for pocket kings he tries the unusual backraise. The player in the big blind has something a little stronger than just the nut flush draw though. | ||
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| Re: What are they playing?, Schuster, 30. Jul 2003 23:24 | ||
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| I'm not quite sure based on the description of the good player, but you said he played a lot of hands. I would put the good player on 44 and the big blind on the nut flush. Lee | ||
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| Re: What are they playing?, Andrew Wells, 31. Jul 2003 15:31 | ||
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| I never said either player was good. Just that the player in the middle respected my game. Therefore to have made the plays he did, he had to have a powerful hand as well. | ||
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| Re: What are they playing?, shorn, 31. Jul 2003 04:58 | ||
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| Andrew- I think both 9's must be active here. My read on the BB is A9h. The unknown player is a little more difficult but I will say 1 of three hands: 44 which is most likely, Q9s second, or K9s third (because I would think a 3-gapper is less attractive to most players). Steve | ||
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| Re: What are they playing?, Flatout_Mainiac, 31. Jul 2003 07:10 | ||
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| I would put BB on K-4s. leading in an then calling through the flop and turn tell me he is weak and is doing a poor job of bullying you two off the hand. He should have folded on the turn as he probably knew he was dead then. Second player I would say q-9s as he came out strong when the second 9 came out and then raised into you instead of calling or folding on the river. | ||
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| Re: What are they playing?, chasepoker, 31. Jul 2003 07:25 | ||
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| 9Th for the BB and 44 for the middle man ? Chasepoker | ||
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| Re: What are they playing?, Wren, 31. Jul 2003 07:48 | ||
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| 9Th....hmm...I think I like that better for the BB than what I initially thought (JTh). BB could still have 9Th and EP K9 (or 44). | ||
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| Re: What are they playing?, Andrew Wells, 31. Jul 2003 15:54 | ||
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| Wren, your final conclusion given the range of other responses is outstanding. You got it as close as could be expected. You agreed that Th9h was more likely from the big blind than Ah9h or JhTh, with fine appreciation of this player continuing to lead bet every card. Well done, the opponent I was familiar with indeed had Kd9d. | ||
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| Re: What are they playing?, Wren, 31. Jul 2003 16:06 | ||
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| w00t! Do I get a prize? ;D Great post, Andrew, and I like your thought-provoking comments to all the responses. I'd like to see more "analyze this hand"-type posts, as opposed to the usual "did I play this right" fare. on 31. Jul 2003 15:54 Andrew Wells wrote: > Wren, your final conclusion given the range of other responses is outstanding. You got it as close as > could be expected. You agreed that Th9h was more likely from the big blind than Ah9h or JhTh, with fine > appreciation of this player continuing to lead bet every card. Well done, the opponent I was familiar > with indeed had Kd9d. | ||
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| Re: What are they playing?, Andrew Wells, 31. Jul 2003 16:37 | ||
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| Yes, your prize is a promise that I won't checkraise you all-in for the next UPF tournament. You had the best overall read on the hand. | ||
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| Re: What are they playing?, Andrew Wells, 31. Jul 2003 15:47 | ||
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| Very nice chasepoker, you are first to see the big blind has more values than just the flush draw to keep firing away. You got it exactly right, Th9h. Pocket fours is just too weak to have limped from early position in a seven handed game. I said this player generally raises when appropriate, and bottom set with a possible flush draw out there isn't something one would expect to be trapping. | ||
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| Re: What are they playing?, chasepoker, 31. Jul 2003 17:06 | ||
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| Very good post Andrew one of the best i have read in ages. I was eventulay sitting here with a pen a paper working out possibilites ! Chasepoker | ||
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| Re: What are they playing?, Andrew Wells, 31. Jul 2003 15:39 | ||
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| K4s from the big blind is interesting, however he keeps firing on every street. This should suggest (along with the heavy action) that he's picking up some improvement with each card. K4 is very dead after the call and my raise on the turn considering the nines out there. | ||
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| Re: What are they playing?, Andrew Wells, 31. Jul 2003 15:35 | ||
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| So, shorn is first to see that both nines are in play. Nice read there, that's probably the hardest thing to figure out about the hand. However it's the big blind who is the unknown player. The other opponent and I have played many hours. You did figure that if the guy in the middle had K9 that it was suited, so not bad overall. | ||
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| Re: What are they playing?, Wren, 31. Jul 2003 07:39 | ||
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| Interesting hand...I'm going to put BB on JTh, and EP on either 44 or K9 - K9 more likely, because as you said, he respects your game, and I can't see him putting THAT many raises in with the worst boat. on 30. Jul 2003 19:15 Andrew Wells wrote: > This hold'em table had just opened starting seven handed. The player second to > act who respects my game just calls. He will play lots of hands, but generally > raises with appropriate ones. I have KsKc in the cutoff and raise. The player in > the big blind who I don't know calls, as does the other opponent. We see the > flop come down Kh 9c 4h three handed. The big blind leads out and is called. I > raise and both players call for the turn which is the 9s. Again the big blind > leads and is called. I raise and am called by the unknown player. Now the guy in > the middle comes alive and three bets it, which I cap. We all see the Qh on the > river. The board is Kh 9c 4h 9s Qh, and the player in the blind leads yet again! > It's raised to me, and I make it three bets. The big blind says "I give up" but > doesn't push his cards more than a few inches towards the muck. The other player > calls immediately. I say "That's a fold right?" So he exposes his hand and > tosses them in the muck. I show my pocket kings and they're good when the other > player also shows what he had. Can you determine exactly what they were holding > if I say that they played understandably? | ||
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| Re: What are they playing?, Andrew Wells, 31. Jul 2003 16:00 | ||
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| Exactly right about the middle player not puting in that many bets with bottom full. I was thinking the same during the hand, that no way would he play a set of fours this way. I gave a moment of consideration to just calling the raise on the river, but decided that the big blind might overcall for two bets anyway. I was also a bit concerned with quad nines, and would have made a crying call if my reraise was capped. I was thinking that I'm either going to have a good day or probably be going home early. It would have been hard to shrug off having either one of them catching the one outer, and I might not have felt I was in good enough shape mentally to continue even after taking a break. | ||
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| Re: What are they playing?, Snorbolus, 31. Jul 2003 11:10 | ||
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| I reckon A9 hearts for the big blind, because he liked the flop and the turn but let it go when it came back to him for 2 more big bets on the river and he realized his flush was no good. K9s for UTG+1, because he liked the 9 on the turn and still seemed to think there was a good chance he was ahead when you capped the river. Snorbolus on 30. Jul 2003 19:15 Andrew Wells wrote: > This hold'em table had just opened starting seven handed. The player second to > act who respects my game just calls. He will play lots of hands, but generally > raises with appropriate ones. I have KsKc in the cutoff and raise. The player in > the big blind who I don't know calls, as does the other opponent. We see the > flop come down Kh 9c 4h three handed. The big blind leads out and is called. I > raise and both players call for the turn which is the 9s. Again the big blind > leads and is called. I raise and am called by the unknown player. Now the guy in > the middle comes alive and three bets it, which I cap. We all see the Qh on the > river. The board is Kh 9c 4h 9s Qh, and the player in the blind leads yet again! > It's raised to me, and I make it three bets. The big blind says "I give up" but > doesn't push his cards more than a few inches towards the muck. The other player > calls immediately. I say "That's a fold right?" So he exposes his hand and > tosses them in the muck. I show my pocket kings and they're good when the other > player also shows what he had. Can you determine exactly what they were holding > if I say that they played understandably? | ||
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| Re: What are they playing?, Andrew Wells, 31. Jul 2003 16:04 | ||
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| K9s is dead on right. That seems to be the concensus here. A9s for the big blind is also a good choice, and he did lay down the made flush on the river. It was suited connectors though instead. Otherwise excellent read Snorbolus. | ||
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| Re: What are they playing?, stdioh, 31. Jul 2003 13:37 | ||
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| It sounds to me like the first player to act had 44 and the second player to act had K9, so on the turn, all three of you were tight. | ||
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| Re: What are they playing?, Jav, 31. Jul 2003 14:01 | ||
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| I would have to put the BB on a very strong draw, that probably got made (hence giving up but not really wanting to release the cards). But since he never raised on any round, I don't think he had a full house. So my best guess would be T,Jh, giving him a gutshot and flush draw, or 9,Th. Either way it has to be good enough to not worry too much about being raised with a paired board. Maybe even A,9h. The other player really liked his hand after the turn and river, so I would guess 4,4, or K,9. But if he had K,9 I would have expected him to make it three bets on the flop. So my best guess is 4,4. | ||
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| Re: What are they playing?, Andrew Wells, 31. Jul 2003 16:34 | ||
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| Good analysis Jav. I was also surprised when he showed the Kd9d that he chose not to raise or make it three bets on the flop. You also got the harder read on the big blind close enough. The main thing being that the player in the blind continued to like his hand the whole way, but not enough to ever raise. That suggests he improved in some way with both the turn and river. Flush draw with extra value it was. Amazing hand to have the case king on the flop, and the case nine fall on the turn. It was a good day. | ||
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| Re: What are they playing?, Jav, 31. Jul 2003 17:03 | ||
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| I think that was a great post Andrew. Look at the response you got. Not all hands are that interesting, but learning to read hands AFTER they happened is the best way to be prepared to read them WHILE they are happening. The important thing is that you had the two kings!!! | ||
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| Re: What are they playing?, Andrew Wells, 31. Jul 2003 18:24 | ||
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| It was also unusual to get to see both their cards, otherwise there's no purpose in posting it here. I was certainly relieved to see that my last raise was just called. If it had been capped on the river, I would have just thrown away another bet to quad nines. It could have been a sickening beat. | ||
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| What are they playing?, donrhem, 1. Aug 2003 06:50 | ||
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| Great post Andrew! Hope you enjoyed getting out the other night. Don | ||
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| Re: What are they playing?, Andrew Wells, 1. Aug 2003 20:53 | ||
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| Yes, thank-you. You and your wife were perfect hosts. | ||
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| Re: What are they playing?, Andrew Wells, 31. Jul 2003 16:22 | ||
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| Kd9d is exactly what he slow played on the flop, and backraised when he filled up on the turn. Pocket fours out of the big blind is reasonable, but I didn't think so at the time since he declined to make it three bets on the turn. That would also have been a very tough correct laydown on the river with the worst full house. I thought when I put in the third bet on the river that he had either quad nines or the nut flush. The player who's game I knew something about, I read for either K9 or AA with the ace of hearts. I thought he might have considered I was on the flush draw with the nine of hearts and that his river raise was an attempt to move me off that hand. If I had Th9h I would have had to muck to his raise there. Nice read on the hand overall stdioh. | ||
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