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Server Time: 12/1/2008 8:02:09 PM PACIFIC |
 Middle pairs (99-JJ) in low limit holdem., David A, 30. Jul 2003 16:36 | ||
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| I´m a winning low limit player at ladbrokes, party and stars. I almost always feel confident on what to do with different hands in different situations, except for the middle pairs. In a typical low limit game I will usually raise with JJ in late and sometimes in middle position, the advantage that I´ve found with raising is that if an A or K flops, people will often put me on AK and fold. But if I get a middle pair in early position I have no idea what to do with it, or if there has been a raise before me. How do you handle these hands? | ||
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| Re: Middle pairs (99-JJ) in low limit holdem., Banning, 30. Jul 2003 16:52 | ||
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| JJ and TT are good either short handed flops or good for multiway play whenever they are either top pair or when you flop a set. If alot of players are limping in then you can also limp in and hope for that set. If it gets folded around to you then raise for sure. Raise to limit the field. But don't raise after alot of others have limped in. Maybe it would be a good idea to play it based on the texture of the game. If alot of people are seeing the flop then you should probably just call, but if alot of people are not then raise. 99 I think are a bit too low to be good for shorthanded flops so I would just limp in with them I think. I have to admit that I share your quandry and would love some others insight. | ||
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| Re: Middle pairs (99-JJ) in low limit holdem., SoCalPat, 30. Jul 2003 17:00 | ||
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| If there is a raise before me, I will usually 3-bet JJ preflop against an unknown player in hopes of getting more information. If the player (or another to act before him) caps, I can safely put him/other player on AA or KK ... maybe QQ (with so many players new to the game, I can see it happening). I can then go into no-set, no-bet mode after the flop. If he doesn't cap, you can't disregard his hand, but when an EP raiser doesn't cap after a 3-bet, the first hand I think of is AK. Still, unless an overcard to your jacks falls, or the board becomes scary-dangerous (three-flush, four-straight, etc.), I think you're in check-call mode all the way here in a heads-up situation. | ||
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| Re: Middle pairs (99-JJ) in low limit holdem., Swagman, 31. Jul 2003 02:53 | ||
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| You'll make a 3-bet for information before the flop has arrived for information on JJ? That's a solid idea im gonna make everything a 3 bet pre-flop just to see if someone might be holding AA. Yea, Im gonna make everything a 4-bet for now on becuase then I'll know exactly what i'm holding. Yea, 4-bets. But if no one is willing to 4-bet that means someone is just holding KK, or AK, or AQ. Yea. and if someone is only willing to take it to 2-bets, bah there just holding J,10s yaa. . P.S. to anyone out there that is just beginning to play poker. Your future is looking bright. | ||
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| Re: Middle pairs (99-JJ) in low limit holdem., DJpoker, 30. Jul 2003 19:08 | ||
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| Hey David, That is a big quandry for many people. I personally raise JJ and TT if the betting comes to me and no one has called. I have a hard time reraising with these middle pairs since 12 overs exist on the JJ alone. As far as raising if there are some limpers, I will fall back on the "it depends" texture of the game. Usually I will just call if I think 4 or more players are calling. The other night I had KK, QQ, JJ and TT all busted wide open. One was a BB so I limped with 5 others in the pot. One was small blind and I limped with similar status. The other 2 (JJ and KK) were capped pre-flop. So I am still trying to figure out those middle pairs. The lower pairs are easy. See the flop cheap and no set no bet. Anyway, good luck and let me know if u find a foolproof system LOL. | ||
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| Re: Middle pairs (99-JJ) in low limit holdem., PairTheBoard, 30. Jul 2003 20:02 | ||
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| I think, when it's not already multiway, to at least sometimes raise with 99, 88, 77, and maybe even 66. If it goes heads up it's nice to be sure of a pair after the flop. You get unpaired high card hands to raise with more often than high pocket pairs and many opponents will attack you whenever a middle board flops. Raising with medium pairs provides a defense to this tactic. imo | ||
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| Re: Middle pairs (99-JJ) in low limit holdem., mroban, 31. Jul 2003 12:24 | ||
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| On JJ and worse, if someone three bets I muck preflop unless I know the players are exceptionally loose with very weak raising requirements. Against very tight players (if I know they only raise QQ or better) I muck JJ preflop against 1 raise unless there are a bunch of other callers in between. Maybe I am wrong, but I think JJ is a big loser against preflop raises and few callers. | ||
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| Re: Middle pairs (99-JJ) in low limit holdem., Asher, 30. Jul 2003 20:24 | ||
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| I would pop it with a lot of hands all the way down to 77, espically after it has been opened and no one else is in. Its pretty easy to get a read and outplay your opponent later in the hand espically when you have position and are heads up. "It depends on the situation" - I Love that quote - But, I will raise with a huge range of hands and then let the field try and guess what I have. Bet and Raise. If that sounds like putting your neck out there too much, then I would just muck 'em if someone else has already opened the pot. Theres no use cold calling a raise. Limp if its loose and try and hit a set, but the pot odds are not in your favor to flop a set - even in the loosest of games. Your going on implied odds whenever you play a small pair in order to flop a set. And I figure, hey if your gonna play, you better give yourself a couple ways to win, and that means betting and raising. Fold when you think your beat. Bring the heat when you think your ahead or you think your opponent(s) will drop. Good luck. Asher. | ||
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| Re: Middle pairs (99-JJ) in low limit holdem., DJpoker, 30. Jul 2003 21:56 | ||
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| I guess I play at the loosest B&M in America because a raise at my local place runs no one and I mean no one. In fact, a raise turns doubters into believers for some strange reason. Maybe it's because I'm only playing 3-6, but the semi-bluffing and raising premium hands scares only the tighest of the tight. Then again why go to vegas when one can get this action at home LOL. I guess I'm siding more with the book by Kew Warren when he says it is best to see the flop as cheaply as possible for the long term poker player. Good luck with that 66. I had a huge kill pot with that set the other night. It was 2 bet before the flop ($48 after rake). Flop was Q-8-6. 4 in hand, first checked, I bet out, 3rd called, buttoned raised, everyone called ($96). Turn was a duece. I bet out, 2nd called, button raised (always raised w/ top or 2nd pair) I reraised, 2nd folded and button reraised. I felt some anxiety (inexperience I'm sure) so I just called ($204 in pot). Did he have QQ or 88? I had him on Q-face but not sure maybe even Q-rag, A-Q or Q-8 (played junk before but had shown trips earlier that night). Anyway river gave us a board of Q-8-6-2-K. No flush possibility. I bet out and button raised. I was like what??? So I thought obviously I gotta call, but should I just raise once more, and I said bump it up 1 more time. he thought and then reraised and although I thought I was best (I wasn't too used to looking at $300 in the pot) I couldn't raise anymore because I could have been beaten by QQ or 88. In fact I was quite nervous because he never backed down. So my buddy says I wussed out no matter what the button showed. I flip over my set, pray and watch him flip over 8-2o. Anyway, if you pros took the time to read all my babble. give me your criticisms on how I played. Trust me, there is never any reason to slow play a hand where I play so please consider that when critiquing my skills or lack thereof. Thanks, DJpoker | ||
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| Re: Middle pairs (99-JJ) in low limit holdem., shorn, 31. Jul 2003 04:41 | ||
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| I am no pro, but it looks to me like you plaued this well. I don't think raising the river is the best idea because the button has shown strength already. Now if you had played against this guy a bunch of times and you had seen him show down crap like 82 a few times, then by all means fire away. But, it seems to me that he wanted to put in the last raise regardless so at some point you had to slow down. Even crappy players get QQ sometimes. | ||
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| Re: Middle pairs (99-JJ) in low limit holdem., Schuster, 30. Jul 2003 23:31 | ||
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| With pairs like these, I want to play them against 2 or less opponents, or 5 or more opponents. The middle ground is where these lose money. The rest of the "it depends" on how to play these is basically with this goal in mind. If the table is tight, I raise, if it's really loose, I call. Sometimes things don't work out. I was at a tight table yesterday and I open raised with early position with 99. I wasn't happy when 4 people called, but I flopped over the board somehow and hit a set on 4th. I think I would make the same play again, it just happened that everyone came across a hand. Lee | ||
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| Re: Middle pairs (99-JJ) in low limit holdem., shorn, 31. Jul 2003 04:47 | ||
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| These pairs can be difficult to play, especially from early position. Generally, depending on the texture of the table (passive or aggressive) I prefer to just call with these pairs in EP in hopes that I will flop a set and win a big pot multi-way. In the games on the sites you mentioned, you won't get that many folks to fold an Ace for 1 raise, so raising to "limit the field" isn't worth the money. The exception to this is if it is already raised in front of you...if that is the case, I will 3-bet TT and JJ, and pretty much fold everything else. Also, if it is 3-bets to me, I generally find it best to fold all of these pairs as the likelyhood of winning (or being ahead at that point) is greatly reduced and therefore I MUST flop a set to win and might not even win when that happens. My general rule is not to put in 3 or more bets with a semi-marginal hand unless I am the aggressor (the exception being flat calling 3 with AA pre-flop for deception). These hands a re tweeners...they can be a big profit maker if you play them correctly (i.e., you don't put too many bets in pre-flop and you also know when to get away from them), but you can also see a lot of red numbers in your poker tracker if you play them too aggressively and in the wrong spots. | ||
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| Re: Middle pairs (99-JJ) in low limit holdem., Jav, 31. Jul 2003 12:30 | ||
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| In general I think you want a lot of volume with these pairs (treat them like low pocket pairs), or you want only one or two opponents. The worst thing you can do is end up with just 3 or 4 opponents. If you get in a position where a raise won't limit to one or two opponents, then you want to limp in if you think you can get more opponents. If you think you can't get either, then it's better to muck and wait for a better position. Of course like all things, this might change depending on the table conditions... | ||
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| Re: Middle pairs (99-JJ) in low limit holdem., stdioh, 31. Jul 2003 13:50 | ||
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| Generally with something like JJ in early position, you want to raise to drive out hands like Ax and increase your chance of winning. Something like 99 is more dangerous. You really need to hit a set with 99, so limping is the way to go. If you get a lot of action on your jacks play them like 9's. Otherwise, play them more like queens. If you have 5+ players in the hand, no worries about putting in more bets because you are getting odds to try to flop a set. If overcards hit the flop then get rid of them. | ||
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