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Server Time: 12/1/2008 8:31:38 PM PACIFIC |
 Starting hands in LL Online, Brian462, 30. Jul 2003 13:38 | ||
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| I am trying to come with a foundation as to starting hands for Low Limit Online. I have success using the following with the only deviation coming on either of the blinds with no raises or from the button with mostly folds. AA, AK, AQ, AJ, A10, A**suited KK, KQ,KJ K**suited QQ, QJ pairs down to 66 with just a call for an attempted set. Any suited connectors 56 and up. I have had success with this but recently after reading a book had narrowed it to only the top ten hands. My questions are as follows, #1 is a the liberal strategy warranted in LL online because of the amount of people whom rountinely call with poor hands thereby increasing the profit potential if the right flop hits to a point at which the call is long run profitable. #2 Is there really a difference between any of the low pairs when it seems that in all cases of 1010 and lower you really need to flop the set in order to take hand again considering the amount of people drawing for hands. In which case doesn't each pair regardless of rank now have an equivalent chance of taking the hand roughly equal to the chances of drawing a third card. Thanks for the help | ||
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| Re: Starting hands in LL Online, Brian462, 30. Jul 2003 14:11 | ||
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| Just to add a bit further I ran an anaylsis of avergage expected value of starting hands regardless of posisition which in my little experience does seem to be a material factor in low limit online. The avg expected value of playing all hands with a positive expected value is 0.07 The avg expected of playing the top ten hands is 0.56 | ||
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| Re: Starting hands in LL Online, TexRoadkill, 30. Jul 2003 14:18 | ||
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| I would think the amount of players that stay in to the river in a LL game actually limits the amount of hands that you should play to the top 10 or less. In regards to lower pairs I will always pay for a cheap flop with a pair. Nothing rakes it in like a hidden full house or 4 of a kind. But I definately wouldn't call bets and raises all the way to the river without a set. | ||
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| Re: Starting hands in LL Online, Schuster, 30. Jul 2003 14:42 | ||
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| Comments are splattered around. Position position position! The importance of position cannot be understated. Where you are GREATLY influences your starting hand requirements. Also, if you are just starting out, you should probably stick to rigid starting standards, but after a decent amount of play, you can vary them a little depending on the game you are in. Early position: AKo, AQo, KQo, suited aces down to A9, KQs, KJs, QJs, TJs, and pairs down to 77. AJo is a judgement call. In a loose game with a lot of players seeing the flop, I tend to throw it away. ATo is a definate muck. Middle position: Everything above plus AJo, 66, 55, T9s, 98s, any suited ace, KJo, QJo, sometimes TJo, QTs, J9s, KTs. If 3 or 4 people have already entered the pot, then 44, 33, 22, 87s, 76s, T8s all become playable. Late position: Everything above plus any pair, suited connectors down to 65s, suited one gappers to 75s, ATo, and if a decent field is already playing, then KXs can become playable, but you have to be able to hit a king and fold the hand, or else, don't get yourself into it. Same goes with the ace-little suited hands. All of these assume you can just limp in, and that you play well after the flop. > I have had success with this but recently after reading a book had narrowed it > to only the top ten hands. Phil Hellmuth's book I presume? Be careful. He suggests a very aggresive play style that is very difficult to use, especially at low limits. It places a lot of emphasis on reading your opponents, and also assumes they will throw their hands away if they are drawing to bad odds. It's very difficult for either of these to hold true in low limit online play. His top ten are good for a beginner, but once you grow beyond that, you should play more hands. > #1 is a the liberal strategy warranted in LL online because of the amount of > people whom rountinely call with poor hands thereby increasing the profit > potential if the right flop hits to a point at which the call is long run > profitable. That depends on how liberal you want to be. I see the flop when I'm not in a blind barely under 20% for my low limit games. I think I am a bit liberal with my preflop requirements, but don't go overboard. If you do want to be more liberal, do it in late position. I belive it was Mike Caro who said that if a good player has position on a great player all night long, the good player will come out ahead more often than not. Forgive me if I'm not attributing the bit of wisdom to the correct source. > #2 Is there really a difference between any of the low pairs when it seems that > in all cases of 1010 and lower you really need to flop the set in order to take > hand again considering the amount of people drawing for hands. In which case > doesn't each pair regardless of rank now have an equivalent chance of taking the > hand roughly equal to the chances of drawing a third card. Each pair has the same chance of flopping a set, but the difference in the middle pairs, like 10 10 and 8 8 are that they can still flop over the board. If you play 2 2 and don't flop a set, you'll have 3 overcards to deal with! Even if you do flop a set, if anyone else has a pocket pair, they still have 4 cards left to hit a set over you, especially if it's a high pair and they will take it to the river. This is why small pairs in early position are not profitable. It's either a set or your holding is useless! If you play 8 8, you might have only one overcard to your pair, and that will significantly increase your hand equity, but you still have to play well after the flop. If you flop an overpair with a hand like this, your holding is good, and if you can manage to limit the field, you are in a very good position to win the hand. It sounds as if you're frustrated with the no fold'em hold'em that is typically encountered. What has worked for me is to look for the games with the smallest pots. Scout it out for a little while, see how many people are taking a flop on average. You'll do better in a game with 3 or 4 fish than 9 fish. Good luck! Lee | ||
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| Re: Starting hands in LL Online, Brian462, 30. Jul 2003 14:55 | ||
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| Lee, Awesome anaylsis thanks a bunch. I have typically been limping in (I assume this means just calling) with the small pairs if I get the set on the flop I raise to see where everyone else is. Assuming a call means weak pair or flush/straight draw, reraise is either strong pair that was slow played preflop or an additional set. If I dont get the set I will call with one over card and fold with two. But I don't feel like I have strong support for play other than it feels right...but so did Q9 for the first week I played. | ||
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| Re: Starting hands in LL Online, Schuster, 30. Jul 2003 23:37 | ||
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| Not a problem, keep studying up and you'll be beating the game in no time. One other thing that I forgot to mention when playing pairs is the number of people in the pot and the texture of the flop. If you're holding TT and the board contains one ace and 2 undercards, it's a lot more likely that someone has the ace than if you're holding 88 and the board has a 9 and 2 undercards. Most low limit players will play any hand with an ace. Also, your underpair is likely to be good against a few opponents, but if there are a lot (3 or more others) in with you, you're better off mucking the hand and waiting for a better opportunity. Playing an underpair (a pocket pair between the top and middle cards) requires a lot of feel and good reads on your opponents. If you're ever not sure, don't be afraid to throw it away. And yes, limping means just calling the blind, but be careful if it's raised in front of you. When it's raised in front of you, you should be looking for an excuse to fold! Only play your strongest hands when confronted with a raise and you'll do well. Lee | ||
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| Re: Starting hands in LL Online, Flatout_Mainiac, 31. Jul 2003 07:50 | ||
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| Very good response. Schuster advice on the starting hands should give you a great base to get you to the flops. The real money (well real low limit money) is made after the flop. In my limited experience, I find that you need to avoid paying off "lucky" play and really hurt the call stations and weaker players when you know you got the nuts. So I tend to fold alot of mediocre hands and some decent hands if there are alot weak players and the flop is anywhere close to being dangerous for a draw that I can't beat. It seems like it is just a fact of life in LL that there are always a few players out there that play anything and you can never put them on a hand. If they hit once in a while against me I never let it bother me because by the end of the sessions I always have there money. On a side note, I've been playing online for about a month and I wasn't a very serious player before that as I prefered the Blackjack tables. In about a month's time I have won about 400 BB playing .5/1 and 1/2 tables at Party playing about 7-10 hours a week. I owe alot of that success to all the generous posters at this site. Any time I ever have a questions on my play I can always find an intelligent, thoughtful post related to my question. THANKS!!! | ||
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| Re: Starting hands in LL Online, shorn, 31. Jul 2003 06:45 | ||
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| Schuster- Great post in response to these questions. Very sound advice/strategy. Steve | ||
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