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Server Time: 8/28/2008 12:47:42 AM PACIFIC |
 Non-standard play, Roy Cooke, 28. Jul 2003 21:23 | ||
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| A tight and tough player calls up front........Another tough player that would respect him raises two behind him......Two players call and I call in the big blind with AQ offsuit.....Big blind calls behind me.....Six players take off the flop for two bets. Flop comes A-T-9 rainbow.......I check planning to checkraise the raiser......Big blind checks.......Tight/tough player leads....All call to me.......I call.....My thinking is that I likely do not have the best hand and there are a lot of draws out there..........Big blind calls behind me.......Turn card is a 5.......Tight/tough player bets again......All fold to me.........With other players in I would be much more likely to hit it.....But I think it is likely the only hand the bettor may play in that manner in which I can beat is AJ......I call again and the big blind calls behind me (I would have rather he didn't).......River comes a 2......Tough player bets again.....I call......Hoping to see AJ........Big blind folds......Tough player shows the A8 of diamonds.......I win the pot... Tough player goes off on me and tells me what an idiot I am for not raising (If he was right, he was an idiot for telling me :-).......Thoughts???? Roy Cooke | ||
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| Re: Non-standard play, Banning, 28. Jul 2003 22:43 | ||
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| I ain't no pro, but I am clever. I just finished reading hold'em poker advanced by S&M, and they say that one should often raise on the flop even with a second best hand because it forces out other players ability to call and outdraw you. Let me see if I can find the part so as to not be misquoting. I have copyright 1988, 1994. Page 79 on raising. First page, He lists 5 reasons to raise in hold'em of which the second reason is to push players out. Then bottom paragraph of the page, "Even if you are not sure that you have the best hand, a raise is often correct. However, always keep in mind that if you do hold the best hand, or if your hand becomes the best hand, your raise may have stopped other opponents from drawing out on you."(79) So that if you improve you get to win it, instead of you improving as well as somebody else. It was a good idea to respect the tight player, but a raise on the flop was probably proper. The calling him down on the turn and river was what I would have done as well. Your checkraise might have even had a chance at winning the pot for you right there had you done it. The tight player would have figured you for an ace with a better kicker and folded. You made more money by calling, I'm not sure if it was worth it statistically. There were 5 other players out there. That is 12 small bets, that is easy odds to even stay in with a inside straight draw. You can't let people have odds like that. Assuming that we know the tight player has a pair of aces. He has 3 outs, and pretend all the callers have 5 outs because they have a pair or a draw. That is 5 players and each have about 5 outs, some of them will overlap so pretend only 4 outs. That is still 5*4=20 outs. Now, 20 communal outs against you, that is just bad idea all over. You allowed them fish to school up on you. So, 20/47 is around 40% I think. So you are giving up 40% equity in the pot by not raising. So, you are gambling that nobody else is going to improve, of course if a check raise wouldn't fold anybody then this discussion is mute, but you should be trying to scare away people. You should have raised on the flop and then called him all the way. Of course you play poker for a living and are far better than I so take what I say with a grain of salt, and tell me what you think about my response. | ||
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| what kind of tough player plays A8?, jdsalinger, 29. Jul 2003 00:14 | ||
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| A7,A8,A9 are all hands that I don't play suited or not even in late position unless I can steal a blind or go heads up. But I don't play Ax especially in limit play. Playing NL with A wheel suited is an option but in limit play I can't see too much being gained. I'd also raise or check raise the flop to get a little more info and the only hand I worry about is AK. If he is tough I may chop as he also may have AQ and we either knock some people out or make it more expensive for someone on a draw and split their calls. Only hands I would worry about is JQ for the draw or 10J and I'd like to find out early if someone has 10,9 (a raise on the flop usually finds out who was slow playing 2 pair although that is stupid in hold'em especially bottom 2 pair). Nobody in their right mid would be in there with J8 openended and 87 is an afterthought. If I have position on him and didn't raise the flop I'd raise the turn and probably check with him on the river. If he bets on the river I know I'm beat. It's better than the call call option. Or I chk raise the turn since I'm first. I don't run into too many players who can take a chk raise on the turn and still bet on the river with only 1 pair. If you check the river and he bets you've got to give him credit for at least 2 pair. | ||
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| Re: what kind of tough player plays A8?, Roy Cooke, 29. Jul 2003 07:52 | ||
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| If i am in a limit game and there is a lot of volume (Particually if it is passive volume) I will play AxS......Even upfront.....I fell confident I can play it for a overall profit in those spots! I will muck it in maniac volume games in which the pre-flop action is often capped! Roy Cooke on 29. Jul 2003 00:14 jdsalinger wrote: > A7,A8,A9 are all hands that I don't play suited or not even in late position unless I can > steal a blind or go heads up. But I don't play Ax especially in limit play. Playing NL > with A wheel suited is an option but in limit play I can't see too much being gained. I'd > also raise or check raise the flop to get a little more info and the only hand I worry > about is AK. If he is tough I may chop as he also may have AQ and we either knock some > people out or make it more expensive for someone on a draw and split their calls. Only > hands I would worry about is JQ for the draw or 10J and I'd like to find out early if > someone has 10,9 (a raise on the flop usually finds out who was slow playing 2 pair > although that is stupid in hold'em especially bottom 2 pair). Nobody in their right mid > would be in there with J8 openended and 87 is an afterthought. If I have position on him > and didn't raise the flop I'd raise the turn and probably check with him on the river. If > he bets on the river I know I'm beat. It's better than the call call option. Or I chk > raise the turn since I'm first. I don't run into too many players who can take a chk > raise on the turn and still bet on the river with only 1 pair. If you check the river and > he bets you've got to give him credit for at least 2 pair. | ||
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| Re: what kind of tough player plays A8?, stdioh, 29. Jul 2003 11:22 | ||
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| I've recently started folding A7s and lower in early and mid position even when there is a lot of action at the table. I'm of the opinion that these hands are too hard to play profitably and when you do play them profitably they don't give you much edge. Same with deceptively decent looking hands like QT suited. Yes, you can probably make some money with Axs in early position against the right table, but playing hands like this is also going to increase your standard deviation significantly. | ||
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| Re: Non-standard play, Roy Cooke, 29. Jul 2003 07:49 | ||
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| Hi Banning You raise some good points......Often if I am in the texture of game in which a raise will not fold anyone I will wait until the turn to raise in the hopes of folding them then. (Or at least giving them a bad price to draw). That was my plan in this case....But when they all folded the turn and only one player was behind me I chose to flat call..... I did NOT think I was anywhere close to being a favorite to have the best hand (That may have been an inaccurate thought). This is a play in which I questioned my thought process (Just because I have played professionally doesn't mean I don't hit shots in the rough) and I thought it was a good post! Roy Cooke on 28. Jul 2003 22:43 Banning wrote: > I ain't no pro, but I am clever. I just finished reading hold'em poker advanced by > S&M, and they say that one should often raise on the flop even with a second best > hand because it forces out other players ability to call and outdraw you. Let me see > if I can find the part so as to not be misquoting. I have copyright 1988, 1994. > Page 79 on raising. First page, He lists 5 reasons to raise in hold'em of which the > second reason is to push players out. Then bottom paragraph of the page, "Even if > you are not sure that you have the best hand, a raise is often correct. However, > always keep in mind that if you do hold the best hand, or if your hand becomes the > best hand, your raise may have stopped other opponents from drawing out on you."(79) > So that if you improve you get to win it, instead of you improving as well as > somebody else. It was a good idea to respect the tight player, but a raise on the > flop was probably proper. The calling him down on the turn and river was what I > would have done as well. Your checkraise might have even had a chance at winning the > pot for you right there had you done it. The tight player would have figured you for > an ace with a better kicker and folded. You made more money by calling, I'm not sure > if it was worth it statistically. There were 5 other players out there. That is 12 > small bets, that is easy odds to even stay in with a inside straight draw. You can't > let people have odds like that. Assuming that we know the tight player has a pair of > aces. He has 3 outs, and pretend all the callers have 5 outs because they have a > pair or a draw. That is 5 players and each have about 5 outs, some of them will > overlap so pretend only 4 outs. That is still 5*4=20 outs. Now, 20 communal outs > against you, that is just bad idea all over. You allowed them fish to school up on > you. So, 20/47 is around 40% I think. So you are giving up 40% equity in the pot by > not raising. So, you are gambling that nobody else is going to improve, of course if > a check raise wouldn't fold anybody then this discussion is mute, but you should be > trying to scare away people. You should have raised on the flop and then called him > all the way. Of course you play poker for a living and are far better than I so take > what I say with a grain of salt, and tell me what you think about my response. | ||
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| Re: Non-standard play, Schuster, 29. Jul 2003 00:59 | ||
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| My question is, why did he bet the river? It seems as though he'll only be called if he is beaten. If someone was willing to call both the flop and the turn with something like AJ, they'd be willing to call the river bet as well. AT and A9 both would have hit 2 pair. I don't imagine people calling with Ace-weak beyond that at your level, Roy, but maybe I'm wrong. Am I missing something? Lee | ||
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| Re: Non-standard play, Roy Cooke, 29. Jul 2003 07:54 | ||
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| First...It was an Internet poker hand...He did not know who I was.....Second, with how the hand played, he had no reason to believe I had a big Ace or better (Explaining his tantrum at showdown).........I can understand his thought process! Roy Cooke on 29. Jul 2003 00:59 Schuster wrote: > My question is, why did he bet the river? It seems as though he'll only be called if > he is beaten. If someone was willing to call both the flop and the turn with > something like AJ, they'd be willing to call the river bet as well. AT and A9 both > would have hit 2 pair. I don't imagine people calling with Ace-weak beyond that at > your level, Roy, but maybe I'm wrong. Am I missing something? > > Lee | ||
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| Re: Non-standard play, stdioh, 29. Jul 2003 11:23 | ||
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| Perhaps he read Roy as having 1 pair and hoping to improve to 2 pair to win. There was enough money in the pot, that this wouldn't be out of character play for an internet player. | ||
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| Re: Non-standard play, Andrew Wells, 29. Jul 2003 14:42 | ||
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| He bet because he expected to get paid off by second pair, and because Roy didn't make any move earlier in the hand that would be consistent with how he thought a hand that had him beat would play. | ||
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| Re: Non-standard play, Banning, 29. Jul 2003 16:50 | ||
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| I have just finished reading Ciaffons book, i unfortunately can't remember the name. It was a bit more of a newbie one but still had some good stuff in it. In it he says, "alot of players won't bet the river because they are afraid of getting raised, this is a huge source of loss. If you have been betting all along and your opponent has not shown strength by just calling then you should definitely bet the river unless a scare card comes down," | ||
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| Re: Non-standard play, Barry T, 29. Jul 2003 01:14 | ||
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| Hi. Some thoughts: 1 - If he is calling up front with A8s, maybe he is not as tight as you thought (though he might be as tough). Sometime you must tell me who this is. 2 - With the raiser to act after the tough player, and with several people on both sides, you get to chose whether to bet and hope the raiser raises you, or to wait for a check raise. You sort of get to pick which half of the field you want to try to eliminate. With a broadway draw and other types of draws, you certainly want to eliminate some set of players. Now I think the best way to do this is to lead into the raiser, trapping the tough player into an early decision. He will understand that you must have a very fine hand to be leading intothe field like this, and will feel squeezed between you and the raiser. Hopefully, one of them will cooperate and raise. I think this play has a lot more merit thean the check-raise plan, especially if you are not going to pull the trigger if lots of callers come. 3 - Given the circumstances you created by not following my advice, you were correct it call. A raise will not increase your equity more than it will the drawing. hands, of which there are too many. 4 - There is a lot to be said for leading at the turn after a blank comes. You cannot be sure if you are ahead or behind (though AK would likely have rasied preflop) but if all check, you will feel horrible. Best, | ||
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| Re: Non-standard play, dan, 29. Jul 2003 04:06 | ||
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| sorry, but...he might be right(not about you being an idiot, but about you raising him). If you raise him after the flop, you can get some valuable information about his hand like whether he has two pair or not, and use this information whether to bet next round, call, or fold your cards before fourth street. But, then again, I raise with AQ before the flop, because I like to represent that I have the monster before the flop and control the betting...makes life easier for me. | ||
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| Re: Non-standard play, Roy Cooke, 29. Jul 2003 07:58 | ||
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| I didn't want to 3-bet pre-flop out of the small blind with AQ offsuit in a volume pot...I think that play would have been incorrect. Roy Cooke on 29. Jul 2003 04:06 dan wrote: > sorry, but...he might be right(not about you being an idiot, but about you raising > him). If you raise him after the flop, you can get some valuable information about > his hand like whether he has two pair or not, and use this information whether to bet > next round, call, or fold your cards before fourth street. But, then again, I raise > with AQ before the flop, because I like to represent that I have the monster before > the flop and control the betting...makes life easier for me. | ||
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| Re: Non-standard play, Schuster, 29. Jul 2003 11:06 | ||
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| I agree 100% with this. I would be very hesitant to 3 bet with AKo in this situation out of the blind as well, but might depending on the table. No one who has paid 2 bets is going to fold to one more, and then they will have between 12 to 1 and 15 to 1, maybe even more, to draw on the flop to a single bet. That's a decent call for a gutshot, and you don't want people chasing their longshots with your unsuited top pair good kicker hand. Lee | ||
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| Re: Non-standard play, stdioh, 29. Jul 2003 11:26 | ||
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| Agreed. If it came around folded, then a raise here would be a valid option, but with that many players coming along this is a clear call scenario. | ||
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| Re: Non-standard play, Big_Slick, 29. Jul 2003 05:57 | ||
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| Who's the player that called you an idiot? Phil Hellmuth? I would have told that guy that you don't take advice from players who play A-8 from EP. The problem that I see with this hand is that you can't hope to catch a Queen to pair up your Ace. A Queen could very well fill someone's straight draw. That being said, I would think that you need to raise after the flop to 1) Make any draws pay extra to hit. 2) Trim the number of players down so that your aces have a better chance to hold up. The great thing about poker is that 10 people will play the same hand differently given the chance. Hey, as long as you won the pot, I'm happy. | ||
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| Re: Non-standard play, Roy Cooke, 29. Jul 2003 08:04 | ||
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| Thanks Big Slick Since I won the pot I feel much better about the hand than if I would have been drawn out on by a hand that may have folded to a raise. The way the hand played, I did not think it was likely I had the best hand. In games like the one we were in playing A8s Roy Cooke is probably correct.on 29. Jul 2003 05:57 Big_Slick wrote: > Who's the player that called you an idiot? Phil Hellmuth? I would have told that guy > that you don't take advice from players who play A-8 from EP. > > The problem that I see with this hand is that you can't hope to catch a Queen to > pair up your Ace. A Queen could very well fill someone's straight draw. That being > said, I would think that you need to raise after the flop to 1) Make any draws pay > extra to hit. 2) Trim the number of players down so that your aces have a better > chance to hold up. > > The great thing about poker is that 10 people will play the same hand differently > given the chance. Hey, as long as you won the pot, I'm happy. | ||
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| Re: Non-standard play, PTaylor, 29. Jul 2003 10:37 | ||
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| Roy, I , like many look up to the example that you portray to all of us aspiring to play expert poker. Your thoughts and advice are always educational and thought provoking.With that being said,in my opinion and experience, the only play that may have been better would have been to lead into the raiser and expect him to limit the field with a raise of his own.This would then assure you that you were against at the very least AQ.I would much rather attempt to eliminate the late position players with a play like this than the alternative checkraise that would eliminate the BB and the UTG.This board cordinates better with those drawing hands that many will play from behind(JTs.QJs.109s,etc.).If he called along with every body else then you knew you were probably ahead but in for a rough ride with all the potential straight draws,second high pairs,and Axs that may be out there. Your play before the flop and on the turn and river were played perfectly with the way the hand developed .No way do I 3bet a six-handed game from the small blind as some may suggest nor do I pop a player who has shown strenghth by betting into a large field on the flop and turn with a holding like top pair.Thank you for all of you insight on Cardplayer and this forum. PT | ||
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| Re: Non-standard play, noiseboy, 29. Jul 2003 11:02 | ||
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| I'm not sure if I'm reading your hand explanation right, but if I am, I would DEFINITELY raise on the flop. If the tight tough player betting the flop was the same one who only called before the flop. He likely has a hand of some sort to be betting the flop, but I don't put him on AK since he probably would've raised pre-flop. Also, I don't put the other players on AK either because with the draws present, they would likely raise the bettor to build a pot and charge the draws. My guess is the bettor has a pair, but only bet because it was checked to him in case nobody has the A, and if he had the best hand, he didn't want to give the draws a freebie. I think I would raise and if I got reraised, then I'm probably beat, but at least I'd know before the bet doubles for the next two rounds. My apologies if I'm reading the hand explanation wrong. Also, keep in mind that you are probably a lot better than me! | ||
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| Re: Non-standard play, noiseboy, 29. Jul 2003 11:16 | ||
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| OK, I just read down to the results of your posted hand. If this is a really loose game, then I can see him coming in with A8 suited from EP. If the table conditions aren't really that loose, then you need to revise your read of this as a "tight, tough" player. For him to criticize your play of AQ when he has A8s is just plain silly, I mean the reason you didn't raise is because you thought he was a good player and likely had a better hand than that, ie, you were giving him "respect." Anyway, I would play him more aggressively with medium A's after that hand, knowing that he doesn't have good kicker values. | ||
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| Re: Non-standard play, stdioh, 29. Jul 2003 11:29 | ||
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| There are a lot of players who won't raise AKo UTG. Never assume somebody doesn't have a hand because they didn't play it right if they have it. For that matter he could have AA (though obviously unlikely) and attempted to limp reraise - something that I often do in hyper-agressive tight games. If I'm in a game where there is almost always a raise preflop, but only 3 or so players seeing a flop, I'll get on the table change list. Then if I get AA before I move and I'm in EP I'll go for a limp reraise most of the time. | ||
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| Re: Non-standard play, noiseboy, 29. Jul 2003 15:11 | ||
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| I was just going by Roy's read of him as both tough and tight. It just sounds like someone who would raise up front with AK and probably AQ as well. I also realize that tough players vary their play, so it's possible that he just limped with AK if it were suited, thus more resistant to multiway action because of the flush possibility. Anyway, since it turns out that he had A8s, he may not be as tight as Roy first thought. | ||
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| Re: Non-standard play, stdioh, 29. Jul 2003 11:19 | ||
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| I think that your call on the flop was sensible. Since you intended to checkraise and then saw all those players coming along, what is the point of building a pot for a hand you won't win? Now when he bets the turn and it is folded to you, I think a good move there would have been to raise. I would raise that for value, but also for deception. Does he have AK or AQ? Possible. Does he have a set? Possible. Does he have AJ? Possible. I want to know what he has got and throw him off as to what I've got. If I call the turn I'm asking him to bet the river and I'm going to have to call that - 2 bets. If I raise the turn and he's on a bigger ace then I'm likely to get a free river - 2 bets ... but if I improve and hit my kicker, I can think about betting that river and getting called by AK - 3 bets. If he's on KK, he might muck to my turn raise and I win the pot right there - fine. If he's on a set or such, he'll reraise me on the turn for sure and I can be comfortable throwing away my AQ, losing the 2 bets I would lose anyway and dealing with it. I guess my point is that against players like this, in hands like this, where there is a lot of money in the pot and few players, I like to play agressive-weak. Checkraise-semibluff a scary turn, for example. Basically, I would say that you gave up one about 1/6 of a BB in that hand, since there's really no way you're not putting 2 BB in if you lose and you stand to win 3 BB sometimes when you win. Now, in all fairness, I don't know the players and I wasn't there - and I highly respect your opinion when it comes to this sort of thing. But in general, I would have raised that turn. It makes it look like I was slowplaying a monster so I *know* where I am in the hand for the price I would be paying anyway. Unless the guy was tricky enough to 3-bet me there without a monster, knowing that he could fold me. | ||
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| Re: Non-standard play, Guru, 29. Jul 2003 12:25 | ||
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| Well, I feel silly putting my opinion in to Roy Cooke, but I think I would have raised the flop. The original tough/tight player only called pre-flop indicating that he had a hand, but not one of the top hands. The original raiser only called, indicating that he missed or only semi-hit. The board had a lot of draws, but no made hands that would take you down immediately. I think I would have raised to knock out the draws with the thought that tough/tight player had second best hand. That's only my humble opinion, though. | ||
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| Re: Non-standard play, Andrew Wells, 29. Jul 2003 14:54 | ||
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| With twelve bets in the pot, I think you can expect that there will be several players that will call before the action gets back to you. What I don't like about playing for a checkraise is that it may be two or more bets already when you have to make that decision. Therefore I probably just lead on the flop with the expectation that the aggressor will take the initiative and try to limit the field with a raise. You also gain more valuable information if one or more players subsequently calls cold than if you checkraise a single bet. | ||
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