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Server Time: 10/11/2008 10:31:11 AM PACIFIC |
 What to do????, Roy Cooke, 28. Jul 2003 21:07 | ||
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| First player folds....Second player, a live, play every hand, ABC player limps.....Tough player behind him calls......I'm next in line with the AT of spades and raise the pot.....All fold to the button, a good player that respects me who cold calls........Both blinds muck and the players in front of me call. Flop comes A-8-8 with two hearts.....Live player leads.....Tough player mucks.......I call.....I know the player behind me will not call without a legitimate hand........I want to see what he does and make a decision on the turn......If he cold called my raise with a hand with an Ace in it .....I think I am probably outkicked. Good player raises........Live guy reraises.....It is up to you with AT of Spades......What do you do? | ||
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| Re: What to do????, cold_cash, 28. Jul 2003 22:29 | ||
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| Fold. No, raise. Wait...call. Crap, I don't know. Roy, you're supposed to tell US what to do, not the other way around. :P lol (I think I'd fold, just based on what you've told us about the other players.) | ||
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| Re: What to do????, Roy Cooke, 29. Jul 2003 08:11 | ||
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| Just thought you might like to do a few poker problems :-) Roy Cooke on 28. Jul 2003 22:29 cold_cash wrote: > Fold. No, raise. Wait...call. Crap, I don't know. Roy, you're supposed to tell US > what to do, not the other way around. :P lol > > (I think I'd fold, just based on what you've told us about the other players.) | ||
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| Re: What to do????, MozMan, 28. Jul 2003 22:52 | ||
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| I fold. I think the good player has an Ace with a big kicker, and the ABC player has an 8. The good player raised to isolate and test ABC, see what he caught on the flop. -Moz "I smoke 'cause I'm hoping for an early death, and I need to cling to something." | ||
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| Re: What to do????, Roy Cooke, 29. Jul 2003 08:15 | ||
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| Those were my thoughts and I did fold.......The good player folded the river...So I assume he had hearts (None came).....I dunno what the live player had....The fact the good player didn't have an Ace DRAMATICALLY increased my chances of folding a winner..... That said, My decisions are MUCH better in retrospect :-) Roy Cooke on 28. Jul 2003 22:52 MozMan wrote: > I fold. I think the good player has an Ace with a big kicker, and the ABC player has > an 8. The good player raised to isolate and test ABC, see what he caught on the > flop. > > -Moz > > "I smoke 'cause I'm hoping for an early death, and I need to cling to something." | ||
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| Re: What to do????, Banning, 28. Jul 2003 23:02 | ||
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| The pot is now at 15 1/2 bets. ABC wisdom says to check raise with trips, unless dealing with a 2 suited flop in which case play more aggresively (page 105 of S&M hold'em poker for Adv. Players). So we still can't discount the "Live one" from having an 8. If I was the player acting after you I would raise if I had any ace because i would be thinking your call was showing that you were chasing the flush and thus I would be trying to give you the worst odds possible so it is possible that you aren't beat by him. The reraise by the opener is now a totally different situation. A player who is putting more money in the pot knowing that nobody will fold is doing so for profit. His limp preflop could be indicative of a low suited connector, of course he might also be playing his ace really aggresively hoping to make you fold to 2 more bets on the flop. If your image is that of a player who has been folding alot lately (and your opponent is aware of this) then you might consider calling, if on the other hand you have been going to the river alot in the last few hands you've played then he is probably not bluffing. I would fold. I think he has the 8 because he limped in with a suited connector. On the very outside he might have A2 of hearts, so he has top pair with a flush draw, either way this is going to be an expensive hand and your hand looks to be second best with little room for improvement. Even with those 15 1/2 bets calling doesn't seem to be worth it because some of your outs are duplicated by hearts, the board is paired and this pot is just going to get more expensive. Leading the board with a bluff isn't a standard ABC play so that ABC player has the 8 I've decided. | ||
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| Re: What to do????, Banning, 29. Jul 2003 00:05 | ||
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| doh, A2 of hearts is impossible, because the Ace has to be of the suit because both of the 8's can't be hearts...DUH! | ||
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| Re: What to do????, PairTheBoard, 28. Jul 2003 23:18 | ||
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| I suppose they could both be playing Flush Draws. lol Best case scenario is the Button is on a Flush Draw and raising for a free card while the loose player is going nuts with any Ace. I think maybe that's one where even I could fold. And I'm afraid they're starting to call me Mr. Implied Odds because I seem to be financing those things for everybody else these days. | ||
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| Re: What to do????, Roy Cooke, 29. Jul 2003 08:19 | ||
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| I think the scenario you described may very well be the case...the good player folded the river.....I never saw the live hand! That said, even if it was good in that particualar situation does not make my fold incorrect. Roy Cooke on 28. Jul 2003 23:18 PairTheBoard wrote: > I suppose they could both be playing Flush Draws. lol Best case scenario is the > Button is on a Flush Draw and raising for a free card while the loose player is going > nuts with any Ace. > > I think maybe that's one where even I could fold. And I'm afraid they're starting to > call me Mr. Implied Odds because I seem to be financing those things for everybody > else these days. | ||
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| Re: What to do????, Allyc, 29. Jul 2003 00:30 | ||
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| Fold? | ||
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| Re: What to do????, jdsalinger, 29. Jul 2003 00:52 | ||
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| I fold AT here even if one of the 8's was a spade giving me a backdoor. Now I've only played online poker the last 6 months so I tend to be on the assume the worst mentality. I figure loose player could have anything. And to 3 bet into 2 other players means he's got to have hand and not trying to put a play. A tough player I assume wouldn't be coming in with any 8 in limit play. A guy who wouldn't call without a real hand has to have better than AT. You didn't mention the exact board but someone could be pumping it with Ax hearts, top pair and nut flush draw is a hand many people raise or reraise with. I wouldn't call just a lone flush on a paired board but some like to call it and some like to raise and some 3 bet. Depends on how long you've played with them and what they are capable of. I figure the best you can hope for is a chop with this hand and it isn't worth calling for a chop. But these stories usually unfold with the author's AT probably winning so on a hunch I say your AT somehow was the best hand.:) hehe gl | ||
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| Re: What to do????, Schuster, 29. Jul 2003 01:10 | ||
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| As soon as you just call the flop, I would think that the tough player knows you have an ace and a kicker not as strong as you'd like. The thing is, there's not a lot to work with on that board in terms of not having an ace or an 8 and still having a decent chance of improving, outside of the flush draw. If he has a pocket pair, he's drawing to 2 outs against the ace or the 8. Even if his reads on you are dead on, he still has to beat the ABC player. Regardless, even if you do have the best hand right now, it's going to cost you a lot to see it the whole way down, and one if not both of these players are likely to have a flush draw if you do have the best hand. I'd put the button on KQ of hearts and the ABC player on an 8. I'd fold the hand and wait for a better spot. Thanks for posting this Roy. Lee | ||
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| Re: What to do????, dan, 29. Jul 2003 03:59 | ||
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| You should have raised the live player. If button player reraises, you gather information from him about his hand, that his kicker beats yours, and you can now fold the hand. Problem with not reraising after live person is that you have allowed the button player to represent that he has an Ace with King kicker where as you could have done that and possibly knocked that guy out, assuming he is holding KQ or Ax like you. I stay in with the other player because he could be raising just because...he raises and likes to represent anything on the board, or maybe he thinks you have a pair in your hand lower than aces. The live player will win his pots, but if you represented AK or even pair of aces, then the tough player would have had no options and fold. And I don't mind going heads up with a live player...big pots are won on suckers like that, aren't they? | ||
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| Re: What to do????, Big_Slick, 29. Jul 2003 05:45 | ||
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| I don't really see how you can call a 2-bet raise here with A-10. While it is possible one of the players has trip 8's, I'd be more concerned with simply being out kicked with the ace. I don't know if it's unusual for the live player to lead out or not. If it is, then I'm even more weary. With the flush draw on the flop, possible trips and the easy chance that you are out-kicked with a better ace, this is a no-brainer fold for me. There are just too many cracks in this hand for me justify playing on. | ||
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| Re: What to do????, shorn, 29. Jul 2003 05:45 | ||
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| Well, this is a tough one. It is a tough call (IMO) between capping it and folding. Calling would be stupid...if you are going to stay, you need to try and isolate the live one on the off-chance he just has an ace with a worse kicker. If you 4-bet and the good player has AQ or AJ or a heart draw, he probably throws it away (AK too if he is really tight). It seems that his raise on the flop was in the hope to try an isolate the live one with a hand that is either second best with some potential or with a draw. I think he would have re-raised you preflop with AQ or AK, folded AJ, so his most likely holding is KQ or KJ of hearts. So, a cap might get him to lay it down. The real question is whether or not the live guy has an 8 or not which is hard to determine. I think the combination of not being able to be sure that the live guy has an 8 or not AND the fact that it is likely that the flush draw is behind you makes the hand a fold. If you had the T of hearts, then maybe the cap would be the better play, but since you can make top two and still lose two ways, I think you need to save your $$ and wait for a better proposition tan a potential two-outer. | ||
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| Re: What to do????, Roy Cooke, 29. Jul 2003 08:20 | ||
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| Well stated !!! I had a similar thought process and folded! Roy Cooke | ||
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| Re: What to do????, Wren, 29. Jul 2003 07:04 | ||
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| AT goes in the muck here. I can't see the good player behind you raising with anything that can't beat you. As for the live player - you said he's ABC, which means he's probably sitting on an 8. Time to say bye-bye! I'm curious why you posted this hand, as it seems pretty straightforward to me. It must have had an unusual outcome. Wren on 28. Jul 2003 21:07 Roy Cooke wrote: > First player folds....Second player, a live, play every hand, ABC player > limps.....Tough player behind him calls......I'm next in line with the AT of > spades and raise the pot.....All fold to the button, a good player that respects > me who cold calls........Both blinds muck and the players in front of me call. > > Flop comes A-8-8 with two hearts.....Live player leads.....Tough player > mucks.......I call.....I know the player behind me will not call without a > legitimate hand........I want to see what he does and make a decision on the > turn......If he cold called my raise with a hand with an Ace in it .....I think > I am probably outkicked. > > Good player raises........Live guy reraises.....It is up to you with AT of > Spades......What do you do? > | ||
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| Re: What to do????, Snorbolus, 29. Jul 2003 08:24 | ||
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| Yes I agree with everyone else who has posted so far. Your hand is probably not best and you don't have a draw. It looks like an easy fold to me. Snorbolus on 28. Jul 2003 21:07 Roy Cooke wrote: > First player folds....Second player, a live, play every hand, ABC player > limps.....Tough player behind him calls......I'm next in line with the AT of > spades and raise the pot.....All fold to the button, a good player that respects > me who cold calls........Both blinds muck and the players in front of me call. > > Flop comes A-8-8 with two hearts.....Live player leads.....Tough player > mucks.......I call.....I know the player behind me will not call without a > legitimate hand........I want to see what he does and make a decision on the > turn......If he cold called my raise with a hand with an Ace in it .....I think > I am probably outkicked. > > Good player raises........Live guy reraises.....It is up to you with AT of > Spades......What do you do? > | ||
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| Result/What to do?, Roy Cooke, 29. Jul 2003 08:24 | ||
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| I folded.....The good player on the button folded the river (I think he had a flush draw) and I did not see the live players hand.....I do think there is a reasonable chance that I folded the best hand! Roy Cooke on 28. Jul 2003 21:07 Roy Cooke wrote: > First player folds....Second player, a live, play every hand, ABC player > limps.....Tough player behind him calls......I'm next in line with the AT of > spades and raise the pot.....All fold to the button, a good player that respects > me who cold calls........Both blinds muck and the players in front of me call. > > Flop comes A-8-8 with two hearts.....Live player leads.....Tough player > mucks.......I call.....I know the player behind me will not call without a > legitimate hand........I want to see what he does and make a decision on the > turn......If he cold called my raise with a hand with an Ace in it .....I think > I am probably outkicked. > > Good player raises........Live guy reraises.....It is up to you with AT of > Spades......What do you do? > | ||
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| Re: Result/What to do?, LEEBOG, 29. Jul 2003 08:44 | ||
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| would you have folded with AQ? | ||
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| Re: Result/What to do?, shorn, 29. Jul 2003 09:11 | ||
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| on 29. Jul 2003 08:44 LEEBOG wrote: > would you have folded with AQ? Well, I am not Roy, but I would have definitely capped the flop with AQ to either find out right there if I am beaten or to fold off the player on the button. In my thoughts on it, there is no way the solid player holds AK because he would have 3-bet pre-flop (same with AA and KK), so the chances are good that you have the best top pair hand. I would also want the flushes to pay dearly to continue and if the solid player cold called 3 bets, then that limits dramatically what he might have. The problem with AT is that there are too two other logical top pair hands that beat you (AQ and AJ) that are logical "flat call" hands preflop (especially suited). So, that is what makes the bigger kicker very important in this case. | ||
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| Re: What to do????, stdioh, 29. Jul 2003 11:36 | ||
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| Before everything, what do you mean by "live, play every hand, ABC player" ... this seems like a contradiction. Live says maniac to me, play every hand says calling station and ABC said solid, but not very good. I'm assuming that you're talking about a maniac for this response. First off, I wouldn't raise ATs in that situation. I'd much rather play the hand for less money with more players than for more money will less players. Really, I want to hit my flush here, or a T-high board, not my ace. The nice thing about ATs is that most players raise JJ and QQ from any position so you know who to fear for an overpair when you hit your T-high board. Now when hitting the A with a medium pair on board, my mind is that you have to play it agressive weak. The live player bets out - great. Now you should certainly raise. As the preflop raiser you'll be able to fold anybody on any ace less than AQ. Because of the raise you'll be able to see where you are in the hand. You fold around to the live player who raises, then call him down (I'm assuming a total maniac here, right?) ... you get the situation you were in coming, release it. Because you just called and then got raised and then the reraise came from a maniac, you don't know where you are. The raiser after you could have a worse ace than you (and probably does, since this is too good a spot to slowplay an 8. So what would I do. I wouldn't be happy with any of my options there. I'd be afraid of calling a turn bet from the maniac only to be raised and reraised. I'd be afraid of folding the best hand in this lucrative pot. Just because he's a maniac doesn't mean he isn't dealt 8's. I would lean towards releasing the hand here. If I did see a turn and it was innocuous, then I would raise the maniac on the turn and fold to a 3-bet 4-bet coming my way. | ||
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| Re: What to do????, Jav, 29. Jul 2003 13:06 | ||
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| Maybe because much of what I've learned about poker has come from your posts, but that's almost exactly how I was thinking about it. | ||
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| Re: What to do????, Roy Cooke, 29. Jul 2003 13:10 | ||
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| By ABC I mean that they play their hands in a straight-forward manner with little or no creativity! Roy Cooke on 29. Jul 2003 11:36 stdioh wrote: > Before everything, what do you mean by "live, play every hand, ABC player" ... this > seems like a contradiction. Live says maniac to me, play every hand says calling > station and ABC said solid, but not very good. > > I'm assuming that you're talking about a maniac for this response. > > First off, I wouldn't raise ATs in that situation. I'd much rather play the hand for > less money with more players than for more money will less players. Really, I want to > hit my flush here, or a T-high board, not my ace. The nice thing about ATs is that > most players raise JJ and QQ from any position so you know who to fear for an > overpair when you hit your T-high board. > > Now when hitting the A with a medium pair on board, my mind is that you have to play > it agressive weak. The live player bets out - great. Now you should certainly raise. > As the preflop raiser you'll be able to fold anybody on any ace less than AQ. Because > of the raise you'll be able to see where you are in the hand. You fold around to the > live player who raises, then call him down (I'm assuming a total maniac here, right?) > ... you get the situation you were in coming, release it. > > Because you just called and then got raised and then the reraise came from a maniac, > you don't know where you are. The raiser after you could have a worse ace than you > (and probably does, since this is too good a spot to slowplay an 8. > > So what would I do. I wouldn't be happy with any of my options there. I'd be afraid > of calling a turn bet from the maniac only to be raised and reraised. I'd be afraid > of folding the best hand in this lucrative pot. Just because he's a maniac doesn't > mean he isn't dealt 8's. I would lean towards releasing the hand here. If I did see a > turn and it was innocuous, then I would raise the maniac on the turn and fold to a > 3-bet 4-bet coming my way. | ||
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| Re: What to do????, Brian462, 29. Jul 2003 13:34 | ||
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| Is being a ABC player as a beginner a bad thing or is it part of a natural progression. I ask because that is exactly how I would describe my self as a player at this point. I really try to be consistent with the cards I go in on and how I bet things. | ||
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| Re: What to do????, MozMan, 29. Jul 2003 13:48 | ||
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| Brian- Roy will have a more informed answer (because he's a pro and has been playing for a long time), but from my perspective, I think it's a good thing for a beginner and for low-limits, for two reasons: 1- as a beginner, you need a solid foundation; you can't "break the rules" until you are well versed in them. 2- in low limit, it's the best strategy. Advanced strategies are lost and largely ineffective on unsophisticated players who don't think about what you are doing, and that's most playsers at low limits. -Moz "I smoke 'cause I'm hoping for an early death, and I need to cling to something." | ||
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| Re: What to do????, Andrew Wells, 29. Jul 2003 14:58 | ||
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| Someone probably has a better ace or an eight, and someone else seems to have the flush draw. Not a good spot, since you may be facing multiple bets to the river. I would lay down the AT here. | ||
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