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Server Time: 10/11/2008 12:39:44 AM PACIFIC |
 Was this play ethical?, mkpoker, 28. Jul 2003 09:03 | ||
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| So I'm playing 3/6 HE during an "Aces Cracked Gets a Rack" promotion at an LA casino (meaning, if pocket aces get beat at showdown, you win a rack of chips in the denomination of your play, or $100, in my case). I'm dealt AA in MP. I raise the blinds and get one caller in LP, who I know often plays sub-premium hands (any ace, suited connectors, etc.) but will fold unless he hits the flop. Blinds fold. The flop comes 9h, 4h, 10c. I really don't know what my opponent has, but I'm quite confident I've got the best hand at this point. Action to me... I say to him, "Bob, I've got pocket aces. If I'm lucky, I can squeeze an extra $3 or $9 out of you, but I really want the $100 bonus. So I'll make you a deal. I'll agree to check to the river to give you a chance to outdraw me. But you've got to agree that if you do hit your flush, straight, or whatever you're drawing to, you won't bet either, but will instead just take what's in the pot." Bob says "deal." Turn comes Qs. River 4s. Bob turns over Ac8c and I win a small pot. Bob says to me "That was a good deal, 'cause I would have mucked to any bet." Another player says (not angrily), "You know, table talk is against the rules." I didn't argue the point, but I do believe that my conduct on this hand was ethical. My view is that by sponsoring the "aces cracked" promotion, the casino makes itself a "player" at the table, and as such, players are entitled to try and "beat" the new player. And while two players should never "conspire" to beat a third player, the rules are a little different when you're playing against the casino. So I'm curious what others think. Was my play in this case 1) ethical and 2) smart? | ||
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| Re: Was this play ethical?, shorn, 28. Jul 2003 09:10 | ||
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| I think the play was smart, but unethical to the "spirit" of the promotion by making an arranged deal to check it down. Why wouldn't you have just checked the whole way and kept it to yourself and maybe even called one bet had he bet? That I think the casino is asking for. But, an implicit deal to not only try to make you the $100 but also share your hand with another at the table is (IMHO) unethical. | ||
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| Re: Was this play ethical?, stdioh, 28. Jul 2003 09:11 | ||
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| I would call it unethical. If you were the only 2 players in the hand it isn't as bad as if you were in there with others, but in general, you were sharing information about your hand in order to gain an unfair advantage. Really your only options were your actions, not your words. Now since you're only trying to gain profit from the house, it isn't so bad, but I don't think that it was a good play either. Really, you should just be checking there without saying anything. Now if he bets at you, you can call him down knowing that either you're winning those bets or winning on the bad beat, he can't fold his hand if you don't bet at him, and you're doing ok. Really, the only way you can make money at your game is to have him make his hand on the river, bet, have you call, and then you lose 1 BB and make the jackpot. To balance that, it is possible that you check to him and he tries to bluff at you or hits one pair and thinks you'll call him. Essentially, I don't know the player, so I can't say for sure, but I'd say that your chance of winning an extra bet by inducing a bluff and losing a bet by being drawn out on are about the same. The question I have is why did you raise your aces preflop at all? I would be inclined to limp or limp-reraise under that situation since you actually want lots of players in the hand. Yes, your chances of winning with aces go down, but now you get either a monster pot or that rack of white cheques. I would have to run the numbers to give you a definitive answer, but it sounds to me that with that deal you want to be only raising AA out of the blinds or puck. | ||
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| Re: Was this play ethical?, Jav, 28. Jul 2003 09:43 | ||
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| Well put. In a promotion like that, it just seems like you would not want to raise preflop to let as many players in as possible. Then you can check or call your way to the river. With a lot of players in, you'll probably win a decent hand or win the rack; what's not to like! | ||
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| Re: Was this play ethical?, bwrose6846, 28. Jul 2003 09:12 | ||
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| Getting into ethics is a bit tricky. However, I would ask this question: "who did you hurt?" No one. Although, if the house had to pay up, it might feel different. If you were bluffing, I would have a different view. But at the end of the day - its poker. | ||
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| Re: Was this play ethical?, Barry T, 28. Jul 2003 10:37 | ||
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| Hi. It was marginal (and I would never do it), but also silly. If you do not bet, he cannot fold. But the house is a little complicit by not having a minimun pot size (say, $24 or $30 in your game) as a requirement to win the rack. Also, the house should specify, as it does in jackpot games, that any mention voids the jackpot. Otherwise, you could even defeat the minimum pot size by just telling your opponent to call twice and you will give him his bets back if he does not win. The Excalibur runs a similar promotion (lose with aces and spin a wheel for a dollar amount), but I do not not know the rules. BarryT | ||
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| Re: Was this play ethical?, stdioh, 29. Jul 2003 12:01 | ||
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| The idea of "any mention voids the jackpot" is a good one, but I could see it being really abused by an unscrupulous casino or player. For instance there are limits to the "english only rule" - I doubt they would catch somebody saying the hindu word for jackpot and it would be relatively easy to deny an honest player a jackpot based on something innocuous. | ||
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| Re: Was this play ethical?, 4 POKER, 28. Jul 2003 10:46 | ||
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| Why would you even want to tell him that you had Aces? In your position, your best bet would be to check it to him all the way down and call his bet if he makes one. If he tries to bluff the pot or if he really does have a legitimate hand, he'll bet it. If he beats you, you win the 100 bucks bonus. If he doesn't beat you, you will win an even bigger pot because you chose to back off the flop and induced him to bet your hand for you. That's the best way for you to make money because if you do bet into him, he may fold and you will have no shot at winning the bonus money......but if you check it there....not only do you put yourself in a better position now to win the bonus......if he *does* bet and does not draw out on you, at least the pot will have something in it. IMHO, you should have just checked, but kept your reasons (strategies to yourself). It's so much better for the game if you do *not* make comments as such....not to mention, you would stand a better chance moneywise if you said nothing. He was definitely getting the best of that deal. You out and out told him not to make any moves on the flop, thus taking away any possible real earn for yourself if all you *do* win is the pot. Think about it. 4 POKER | ||
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| Re: Was this play ethical?, Big_Slick, 28. Jul 2003 10:56 | ||
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| I don't understand the raise preflop. | ||
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| Re: Was this play ethical?, MozMan, 28. Jul 2003 11:12 | ||
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| Promotion or no promotion, I think it's unethical, and also just the wrong way to play it. Unethical because you should not reveal what's in your hand, ever, while it is still live. Here's why I think it was a bad way to play it: Given the promotion, I think the best way to handle it is to call pre-flop instead of raising (the only time you will hear me say that reference to AA) in hopes that you will have a big multi-player drawing pot, then check-call all the way. If you do this, you can't lose because: 1- If your Aces get cracked, the casino pays you off; 2- If your Aces don't get cracked, you win a bigger pot. -Moz "I smoke 'cause I'm hoping for an early death, and I need to cling to something." | ||
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| Re: Was this play ethical?, onlinechamp, 28. Jul 2003 12:49 | ||
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| http://www.onlinechamppoker.com/ Well I still love my AA!!! | ||
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| Re: Was this play ethical?, stdioh, 29. Jul 2003 12:01 | ||
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| Oh Jebus. Who let this anus back on here? | ||
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| Why?, mkpoker, 28. Jul 2003 11:15 | ||
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| Thanks for all the good posts. Clearly, I made the wrong play, ethics aside (although I still maintain that when the house is "asking for trouble" players have every right to give it to them.) After reviewing everyone's posts, clearly the right play was to check/call all the way to the river. Posters asked a bunch of questions, which I'll try to answer here (even though my answers don't seem especially compelling in the clear light of day). Why did I raise pre-flop? Truth is, it was almost a reflex. Get AA, raise pre-flop. I wasn't thinking about the bonus at all. Clearly, this was an error. I should have wanted everyone to see the flop and therefore should have called the blind only. Why talk about my hand? I was trying to avoid the scenario where I'd lose a big pot by being out-drawn on the turn or river. Even though I'd still make money (by winning the bonus), my net profit would have been substantially lower had I lost a $30 pot than a $10 pot. Because the flop had both flush and straight potential, I thought this was a real risk. However, stdioh is right that the "losing" risk is likely outweighed by the "winning" risk, where I could win a bigger pot (but not the bonus) by inducing a bluff from my opponent by checking so much (again, not something I had considered at the time). Lessons learned; moving on. Thanks. | ||
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| Re: Why?, LJH, 30. Jul 2003 11:26 | ||
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| MPOKER, IF YOU HAVE TO ASK THEN YOU NEED TO GO BACK TO YOUR ETHICS COURSES, WHICH OF COURSE YOU NEVER TOOK. LJH | ||
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| Re: Was this play ethical?, LJH, 30. Jul 2003 11:22 | ||
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| MPOKER, IT WAS NOT ETHICAL, BUT YOU DON'T SEEM TO CARE. LJH | ||
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