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Shorthanded Tables, party especially, palman, 27. Jul 2003 21:54
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I play primarily sit n go's for the majority of my profit-seeking, but the only other game I've ventured into are these shorthanded tables (1/2)

And I'm actually surprised with the results, because all common sense that I've come to know about poker seems to go out the window. I've been quite profitable with it, over say 50 hours, making about 20 an hour.

I basically play the part of a calling station. Most tables are fairly passive preflop, with very little raising. In these tables I almost play any hand. Seeing 66%-75% of the flops. My conventional poker wisdom tells me this can't possibly be good strategy, but its effective for 2 reasons. First off it gets every one of my solid hands paid off. Secondly, in most passive games where 4 people are seeing every flop and 3 usually see the turn, there are good odds for drawing hands, straights and even gutshots, any four flush, medium and bottom pair, etc. (unless the flop has obvious straight chances or flush chances that I am not a part of)

My betting pattern is rather simple.... I especially play position. If someone in front of me is going to bet out for me I'm more than welcome to let him do so. I usually let them bet until the river, where I re-raise if I have it.

Now conventional wisdom says tight/aggressive (although in shorthanded its implied tight has to be modified) is the way to go, but I find aggressive play simply not to work. If I raise on the flop or turn.... if I'm beat I'll lose extra bets, and if I'm not beat I wont win as much as I would have.

If someone bets out the hand, and you throw a raise in on the river, it will almost always get called. Especially if you arent labeled as tight aggressive. Most will call just to see what you have, and figure its only one more bet.

If you raise on the turn, if they fold, you lose 2 bets, and if you're beat, yyou would lose the same if you raise and get re-raised on the river or turn.

For those that say raising on the turn helps you to win the pot right there, and prevents them from being able to draw on you. My contention is that if they have any chance of being able to draw you out, they will call the raise anyways, and most players don't make good "laydowns" anyways.


Of course there are situations when I do raise, when I think I can buy pots, if I have top pair and its obvious the other guy is on a draw, etc.

My style has great variances, at 1/2 dollars 50 dollar swings are about the most they go, but that still is a decent sized swing.

I think the jist of what my thinking is that drawing hands are more powerful than in a usual game, and I try to maximize my profit on every hand when I do have a winner.

Most players are either constant bluffers, or they bet when they have the goods. The players who bluff alot never adjust to me calling them down to the river and showing my mid pair for a winner. Sure they have the goods but they bluff so often that their winners don't cover the extra 2 bets I get on the river (me raising compared to folding) or the hands where the flop doesnt fit and I am not involved.

Tables with a lot of preflop raising I simply walk away from or just tighten up.

Thoughts, comments? Everything I've said and the way I play is against most all that I've read about poker, and I play tight as a rock in other games, so my strategy isn't based on my impulses simply results (albeit only 50 to 100 hours worth so far)

What type of players would eat my strategy alive, and which do they work against? Obviously a table where only 2-3 people are seeing every flop won't fit me well, since playing as many hands as I do, I'm going into most flops as a dog and without the proper odds to draw.
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Re: Shorthanded Tables, party especially, Roy Cooke, 28. Jul 2003 06:56
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My answers are beneath your statements!

Roy Cooke

27. Jul 2003 21:54 palman wrote:
> I play primarily sit n go's for the majority of my profit-seeking, but the only
> other game I've ventured into are these shorthanded tables (1/2)
>
> And I'm actually surprised with the results, because all common sense that I've
> come to know about poker seems to go out the window. I've been quite profitable
> with it, over say 50 hours, making about 20 an hour.
>
> I basically play the part of a calling station. Most tables are fairly passive
> preflop, with very little raising. In these tables I almost play any hand.
> Seeing 66%-75% of the flops. My conventional poker wisdom tells me this can't
> possibly be good strategy, but its effective for 2 reasons. First off it gets
> every one of my solid hands paid off. Secondly, in most passive games where 4
> people are seeing every flop and 3 usually see the turn, there are good odds for
> drawing hands, straights and even gutshots, any four flush, medium and bottom
> pair, etc. (unless the flop has obvious straight chances or flush chances that I
> am not a part of)

Roy Says: Your right ....It can't possibly be good strategy. That is WAY too loose starting requirements. 50 hours is not enough of a sample size to justify your results.....Keep playing; that way and your results will change....You need to tighten up significantly.....Yes, playing that many hands will help you get other hands paid off (But if they are that loose, they will probably pay you off anyway), but that won't make up for the overall loss of edge from playing that many hands and with that level of volume you will get good prices to draw (You should loosen up on your drawing hands in loose-passive games), but you are loosening up too much....Often when your opponents are playing every hand, your low level flush draws are drawing dead to higher flush draws! That HUGELY affects the value of them!
>
> My betting pattern is rather simple.... I especially play position. If someone
> in front of me is going to bet out for me I'm more than welcome to let him do
> so. I usually let them bet until the river, where I re-raise if I have it.

Roy says: You should raise out other opponents if your hand is vulnerable.......Trapping plays like you describe are good plays heads-up though!

> Now conventional wisdom says tight/aggressive (although in shorthanded its
> implied tight has to be modified) is the way to go, but I find aggressive play
> simply not to work. If I raise on the flop or turn.... If I'm beat I'll lose
> extra bets, and if I'm not beat I wont win as much as I would have.

Roy Says: But it does stop people from drawing against you (thereby increasing your propensity to win) or reduces the odds they are receiving to draw.......Put in the bets and accept the swings! Over time that adds up considerably!
>
> If someone bets out the hand, and you throw a raise in on the river, it will
> almost always get called. Especially if you aren't labeled as tight aggressive.
> Most will call just to see what you have, and figure its only one more bet.

Roy Says: I agree!

>
> If you raise on the turn, if they fold, you lose 2 bets, and if you're beat,
> you would lose the same if you raise and get re-raised on the river or turn.

Roy Says: Yes, if you are heads-up and have no other players in the pot....Also if they fold the turn they cannot suck out on you and win the pot if your hand is good!
>
> For those that say raising on the turn helps you to win the pot right there,
> and prevents them from being able to draw on you. My contention is that if they
> have any chance of being able to draw you out, they will call the raise anyways,
> and most players don't make good "laydowns" anyways.

Roy Says: More true at Low-Limit than higher limits! But if there are multiple players you are losing the bets from the draws!
>
>
> Of course there are situations when I do raise, when I think I can buy pots, if
> I have top pair and its obvious the other guy is on a draw, etc.
>
> My style has great variances, at 1/2 dollars 50 dollar swings are about the
> most they go, but that still is a decent sized swing.
>
> I think the jist of what my thinking is that drawing hands are more powerful
> than in a usual game, and I try to maximize my profit on every hand when I do
> have a winner.

Roy says: Yes, drawing hands go up in value in loose-passive games...just don't go overboard on this!
>
> Most players are either constant bluffers, or they bet when they have the
> goods. The players who bluff a lot never adjust to me calling them down to the
> river and showing my mid pair for a winner. Sure they have the goods but they
> bluff so often that their winners don't cover the extra 2 bets I get on the
> river (me raising compared to folding) or the hands where the flop doesn't fit
> and I am not involved.

Roy Says: Yes, I agree with the play of letting consistent bluffers bluff off their chips....But raise if players are to act behind you and there is any significant money in the pot!

>
> Tables with a lot of preflop raising I simply walk away from or just tighten
> up.

Roy Says: Learn how to play them....Good poker players learn to adjust to all situations just as good golfers adjust to all courses!
>
> Thoughts, comments? Everything I've said and the way I play is against most
> all that I've read about poker, and I play tight as a rock in other games, so my
> strategy isn't based on my impulses simply results (albeit only 50 to 100 hours
> worth so far)

Roy Says: Don't try to reinvent the wheel....A lot of bright guys wrote some good stuff in those books! You will do yourself well to study and follow them!
>
> What type of players would eat my strategy alive, and which do they work
> against? Obviously a table where only 2-3 people are seeing every flop won't
> fit me well, since playing as many hands as I do, I'm going into most flops as a
> dog and without the proper odds to draw.

Roy Says: Any players that have a clue how to play will chop you up! Step up in limits and you will see!!

Roy Cooke
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Re: Shorthanded Tables, party especially, palman, 28. Jul 2003 11:56
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I think in general my response would be this: I agree wholeheartadly with your analysis in this strategy never working in higher limits against good players.

But what I am saying is that the quality of players playing 1/2 shorthanded tables at party at the moment don't have players that will eat the strategy up. I don't suppose you play much 1/2 or could even fathom what you'd see there.

I also state that when I get a table with only 2/3 people seeing the flops, I get up and find another table. You suggested I learn how to play with them, which of course I can adjust my strategy and do so, however I find them less profitable and it usually only takes but a few minutes to find a nice loose passive table with 5 callers on each hand.

I basically like to sit to the immediate left of a player who bets out on basically EVERY hand and EVERY betting round unless raised. (and you can find plenty of these people on partypoker) virtually regardless of his cards. In this situation I find it very hard not to be profitable if you can simply realize if you're drawing dead or not. (maybe its just lack of quality hours, but if I'm holding 2 hearts, and 2 hearts are on a flop, it seems quite rare that in a shorthanded game with 5-6 people someone else is also holding 2 cards of the same suit)


I'd appreciate an analysis of the following situation.

You hold AhKs on the button, which you raised preflop. and have 4 other callers, for a pot of 10dollars (1/2)

Flop Ac10d8c

The four players hold the following hands.
1. Ax (which hasnt gone for 2 pair) (3 cards can improve)
2. a four flush (9 cards to improve)
3. mid pair with a decent kicker (5 cards can improve)
4. And a straight draw (gutshot or open ended, thus 4 or 8 cards to improve)

UTG bets (he has the Ax) and everyone else calls. If you raise the only hand you may get to fold is the Mid pair, but at these limits most every player will at least see the turn for the extra dollar (which at this point would make it 1 more dollar to see a 20 dollar pot on the turn)

* It is my contention/observation that the gutshot draws and the mid pair will always see the turn, and most likely it will be checked around on the turn, at which point if I bet most of the time they will see the river as well. People don't fold aces with flops like this at these limits on party, and the flush will always see the river*

The question here is this..... Is raising the good play on the flop in this situation? With so many people with different draws, you are in the best position but more likely than not you will get drawn out. Is this a situation where while you aren't going to win the pot 50% of the time, it is even more of a negative expected value to let the players see the turn for only one bet?


I do think perhaps that it would be difficult to answer questions at the REALLY low limits on party because I would think that it's a totally different style of poker than anything you've been used to for quite some time, Roy, if at all. Perhaps I am generalizing the players playing, but if anyone else here has played these tables, perhaps they can give insight into either this post or the previous one.

But nonetheless Roy I appreciate your comments. And As stated in another thread by 4 Poker, I just read your latest column in cardplayer and thought it was your best one to date.



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Re: Shorthanded Tables, party especially, palman, 28. Jul 2003 12:05
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In my situation described at the end...

If I were in middle position in this situation and someone bet infront of me, I would raise to drive out the mid pair and gutshot. In first position, I would usually bet out, because I would expect the Ax to raise me(again dependent on the player, but this happens quite often), at which point I would re-raise to drive out most the draws. (although the flush draw will stay around, but the mid pair and gutshot wouldn't likely be around to see the river)
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Re: Shorthanded Tables, party especially, Schuster, 30. Jul 2003 12:05
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Here's what I'd do in this situation. Comments are after each portion.


> You hold AhKs on the button, which you raised preflop. and have 4 other callers, for a
> pot of 10dollars (1/2)

I'd be wary of raising 4 limpers with an AKo in games like this. AKo doesn't play as well as you'd like against a large field. Say you hit your top pair top kicker flop. It's checked to you, you bet, and anyone who calls is getting 11 to 1! You bet they are going to call with those odds with all kinds of hands, even as weak as middle pair with wretched kicker. However, if you limp, then someone before you will probably bet the ace, and then you pop it. Now people are getting a much lower price to draw, probably somewhere around 3.5 to 1 to call your raise, depending on who has called the initial bet thus far.


> Flop Ac10d8c
>
> The four players hold the following hands.
> 1. Ax (which hasnt gone for 2 pair) (3 cards can improve)
> 2. a four flush (9 cards to improve)
> 3. mid pair with a decent kicker (5 cards can improve)
> 4. And a straight draw (gutshot or open ended, thus 4 or 8 cards to improve)

You probably have the best hand right now, but the problem is that with all those outs against you, you're a dog to win it! And since the pot is so large, people are correct in calling you and trying to get there.

> UTG bets (he has the Ax) and everyone else calls. If you raise the only hand you may get
> to fold is the Mid pair, but at these limits most every player will at least see the turn
> for the extra dollar (which at this point would make it 1 more dollar to see a 20 dollar
> pot on the turn)

With UTG betting and 3 others willing to call, you're at 14 small bets in the pot. No one is going to fold if you raise. Against such a large field, I would probably call and see what the turn brings. With 20 outs against you, you're a dog on the flop, but if the turn is a blank, you're now the favorite to win! Now you can raise the turn. If someone plays back for 3 bets, you can probably throw your hand away and you will have lost the same as if you just called it the whole way down. If no one plays back, you can assume you have the best hand, and you're charing people 2 bets to draw into a pot that started off as about 7.5 big bets. Their odds are not nearly as good now, and people playing gutshots and middle pair are now incorrect in calling. You make money here!

> * It is my contention/observation that the gutshot draws and the mid pair will always see
> the turn, and most likely it will be checked around on the turn, at which point if I bet
> most of the time they will see the river as well. People don't fold aces with flops like
> this at these limits on party, and the flush will always see the river*

Nope, they sure don't fold aces, and these are the people you want to exploit. They are drawing to 3 outs on you, and they probably don't realize it. I've found that the gutshot and middle pair draws will see the turn if it is cheap AND the pot isn't large. You want to play against the Ax hands, and you want the other hands out. The flush will stay the whole way almost regardless, I agree, so you want to do your best to give the worst odds possible to draw, which doesn't always mean raising as soon as you can.

Another example... say you have something like J-6o in the big blind in a really loose game like this. It's a total pig hand, obviously, but you see a free flop that comes something like Q J 6 with a flush draw. Now you've hit bottom 2 pair, but the board is highly coordinated. What do you do in this situation against a large field, say 5 other opponents? Well if you bet out, anyone with a Q, a flush draw, a straight draw, or maybe even as bad as a gutshot or middle pair, is going to call. What I would do is consider my opponents. First, the players to act soon after me, would they raise with a queen to get others out of the hand? If they would, I would be more inclined to bet out, and then they can raise to thin the field out. Are the players in late position likely to bet with weaker holdings if it's checked to them? If so, I might try for the check raise. I try to confront a majority of the field with 2 bets cold with a holding like this. You probably have the best hand right now, but it is very very vulnerable with a board like this. If I cannot do this one way or another, I'll check and call the flop, and see what the turn brings. If it's a blank, and if the aggresor is in late position, you are in good position to check raise and thin the field with bad odds so they don't go to the river and draw out on you. Now, if a really scary card falls on the turn, like an ace that completes the flush draw, you can get out or draw to the full house if the odds are right, and you have lost the minimum. The pot you win won't be as large, but you've greatly increased your chances of winning the hand by thinning people out, thus increasing your overal profit.

Considering the texture of the board and how it relates to the current pot odds offered to your opponents will increase your profits a good deal. Try to think about what people are calling with, and yes, sometimes they ARE calling with complete trash. Some players will see the whole way to the river trying to spike an ace, or chase a gutshot the whole way. Do everything you can to play against a SMALL field of these players and you will do very well. Hope this helps.

Lee
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