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Server Time: 3/16/2010 9:58:29 PM PACIFIC |
 Looking at the bills..., Guru, 26. Jul 2003 23:51 | ||
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| So I can't sleep and I decided to take a closer look at the legislation in both the House and the Senate. Possible good news... (well, maybe). This is VERY interesting to me. There is a bill in the house to create a joint House-Senate commission on Internet gambling licensing and regulation. Notice the key words "licensing" and "regulation". Why would you create a commission on licensing something you were trying to completely outlaw? It appears to me that some people are trying to get their fingers in the pie. There are major issues that they clearly outlined and focused on in creating this bill... 1) Consumer Protection - some people are getting ripped off somewhere and the government should help in their eyes. The bill actually states that online gaming should be subject to the consumer protection laws of the United States. 2) Money Laundering - They believe that there is a real threat that these offshore casinos could be laundering tons of money for criminal organizations. This is actually a legitimate concern given that the mob used Las Vegas like a laundromat for so many years. The good news is that Las Vegas is a really good example of how government regulation could do good. 3) Access To Minors - Again, a real concern because there is no doubt that lots of minors gamble online everyday and most of them get into pissing matches at my table. 4) Inconsistant Laws Across State and Tribal Governents - There seems to be a concern that the current hodge-podge of laws across our land make gambling difficult to control and regulate properly. The end result could be some sort of action in which the federal governement takes the matter out of state and tribal control and puts it under federal control with a uniform code. That could be really good or really bad. The best possible outcome would be creating a national gaming commision that essentially makes it legal nationwide under federal regualation. Okay, I realize that I'm just dreaming, but one could hope. 5) Addicted Gamblers - How to help those addicted to gambling. 6) Actual text says, "Because of the nature of the Internet, legislative attempts to prohibit Internet gambling are unlikely to be effective, and may adversely impact American's rights to due process and individual privacy." Interesting. 7) Other actual text, "Commercial casino operations, Native American tribal gaming operations, State lotteries, horse and dog racing tracks, jai alai, and card rooms have made legal land-based gambling available to the vast majority of Americans." That could be interpreted to mean it's already legal almost everywhere anyway. This is the best part.... "Requires the Commission to issue proposed changes which: (1) preserve the prerogatives of States and tribal sovereignty; (2) include measures to minimize adverse impacts of Internet gambling and to eliminate the disparate treatment of various forms of Internet gambling (with an exception); (3) provide for the appropriate taxation of Internet gambling enterprises; (4) provide for the licensing of enterprises both within and outside of the United States; (5) remain consistent with U.S. goals, principles, and obligations in other international negotiations governing electronic commerce; and (6) include measures to discourage, prohibit, or prevent U.S. citizens from wagering with unlicensed Internet gambling operations outside the United States." The bill actually asks the commision to suggest ways to regulate and tax online gaming. It also specifically calls for the licensing of online gaming sites. Here is the link to the site if anyone is interested.. http://www.senate.gov/pagelayout/legislative/g_three_sections_with_teasers/legislative_home.htm Just do a keyword search for online gaming and look for bill H.R.1223. All I'm saying is that this bill looks like a shining ray of hope for us and the commision would certainly be the forum where the professional players and casino owners would get a voice. It also looks as if someone has figured out exactly how much money is to be made and is looking to control the wealth. That's just fine with me as long as I can play poker in peace. | ||
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| Re: Looking at the bills..., Roy Cooke, 27. Jul 2003 07:26 | ||
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| Thanks for the post....Very interesting and well written and formatted! Roy Cooke | ||
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| Re: Looking at the bills..., Guru, 27. Jul 2003 08:32 | ||
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| Before anyone gets too excited, keep in mind that this bill is still in committee as far as I can tell and has not been passed or anything. Even if something were to happen with it, it would be at least three years before everything was shaken out. | ||
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| Re: Looking at the bills..., spawgan, 27. Jul 2003 09:03 | ||
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| It has been my experience that Congress or the government will set up these commissions in order for them to do studies that would justify the use, existence or creation creation of some piece of legislation. The legislature will make it sound like the commission is going to do something positive for people in favor of internet gambling, so those that are in favor of the online poker playing and gambling will have a false sense of security regarding online gambling. Second, bills like this are used to help pacify angry constituents who call there office complaining about the real internet gambling bills. The office of the congressman or senator will usually say, oh we are not trying to get away with abolishing internet gambling look at H.R. 1223, we are actually trying to create a commission that is studying legalization internet gambling. To a degree it has worked hasn't it. Your post showed you held out the hope the authors of this bill and the other internet gambling bills wanted you to have. A telling sign is that the bill that would create this commission was numbered H.R. 1223 and was introduce March 12, 2003 and has yet to get out of committee. Yet the Unlawful Internet Gambling Funding Prohibition Act , HR 2143 was introduced May 19, 2003, 2 months later, and has not only gotten out of committee but has passed the House and is being considered by the senate. The long and short of the matter is that it is a matter of time before gambling over the internet is illegal. | ||
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| Re: Looking at the bills..., beigs, 27. Jul 2003 09:54 | ||
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| My question is, how can the government regulate what is not being conducted in their jurisdiction. Other than making it illegal for US citizens to use the phone lines to place bets or deposit funds, they can't really do anything else, can they? They can't raid internet poker rooms. Then they'd screw everyone using the rooms that are not US citizens. What level of enforcablilty will the governement have? | ||
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| Re: Looking at the bills..., spawgan, 27. Jul 2003 13:14 | ||
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| The government will use programs in place because of the Patriot Act and will subpoena the records of ISPs, or in certain special circumstances even look in real time, to see where you have been to and logged onto. They will see if you are connecting to the online poker sites. They will also have the number you used to log into the ISP, so they will know if you were located in the United states. They will then use that info to send a man in a neat suit, power tie, sunglasses and a gun to come around and ask questions. I am telling you, we are steps away from big brother. | ||
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| Re: Looking at the bills..., Guru, 27. Jul 2003 15:00 | ||
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| While I agree that Spawgan has a healthy skepticism of our government and should do so, I think his worry goes a little far. The actual bill that passed the house is as toothless as can be. It in no way actually criminilizes online gambling. It only makes it illegal for U.S. companies to fund those sites and even that wording is iffy. It does outright make it illegal to run an internet gambling site, but that is totally moot because none of the sites are in the U.S. anyway. Spawgan's point about the bill still being in committee is a good one though. It does cast a shadow on the possibility of it's passage. | ||
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| Re: Looking at the bills..., Don Quixote, 27. Jul 2003 10:35 | ||
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| The govt is looking at internet gambling and drooling over the taxable income; but the question is whose income. The casinos themselves are probably beyond its taxing jurisdiction. Gambling losses are not taxable, but gambling winnings are. Of course, everyone that has a net win during the year files taxes on it. What really is left for the govt to tax. Don't worry, the poli-tic-tions are very creative. They will find a way to get into our pockets yet again. Don Quixote (one more windmill) on 26. Jul 2003 23:51 Guru wrote: > So I can't sleep and I decided to take a closer look at the legislation in both > the House and the Senate. > > Possible good news... (well, maybe). This is VERY interesting to me. There is a > bill in the house to create a joint House-Senate commission on Internet gambling > licensing and regulation. Notice the key words "licensing" and "regulation". Why > would you create a commission on licensing something you were trying to > completely outlaw? It appears to me that some people are trying to get their > fingers in the pie. There are major issues that they clearly outlined and > focused on in creating this bill... > 1) Consumer Protection - some people are getting ripped off somewhere and the > government should help in their eyes. The bill actually states that online > gaming should be subject to the consumer protection laws of the United States. > 2) Money Laundering - They believe that there is a real threat that these > offshore casinos could be laundering tons of money for criminal organizations. > This is actually a legitimate concern given that the mob used Las Vegas like a > laundromat for so many years. The good news is that Las Vegas is a really good > example of how government regulation could do good. > 3) Access To Minors - Again, a real concern because there is no doubt that lots > of minors gamble online everyday and most of them get into pissing matches at my > table. > 4) Inconsistant Laws Across State and Tribal Governents - There seems to be a > concern that the current hodge-podge of laws across our land make gambling > difficult to control and regulate properly. The end result could be some sort of > action in which the federal governement takes the matter out of state and tribal > control and puts it under federal control with a uniform code. That could be > really good or really bad. The best possible outcome would be creating a > national gaming commision that essentially makes it legal nationwide under > federal regualation. Okay, I realize that I'm just dreaming, but one could hope. > > 5) Addicted Gamblers - How to help those addicted to gambling. > 6) Actual text says, "Because of the nature of the Internet, legislative > attempts to prohibit Internet gambling are unlikely to be effective, and may > adversely impact American's rights to due process and individual privacy." > Interesting. > 7) Other actual text, "Commercial casino operations, Native American tribal > gaming operations, State lotteries, horse and dog racing tracks, jai alai, and > card rooms have made legal land-based gambling available to the vast majority of > Americans." That could be interpreted to mean it's already legal almost > everywhere anyway. > > This is the best part.... > "Requires the Commission to issue proposed changes which: (1) preserve the > prerogatives of States and tribal sovereignty; (2) include measures to minimize > adverse impacts of Internet gambling and to eliminate the disparate treatment of > various forms of Internet gambling (with an exception); (3) provide for the > appropriate taxation of Internet gambling enterprises; (4) provide for the > licensing of enterprises both within and outside of the United States; (5) > remain consistent with U.S. goals, principles, and obligations in other > international negotiations governing electronic commerce; and (6) include > measures to discourage, prohibit, or prevent U.S. citizens from wagering with > unlicensed Internet gambling operations outside the United States." > > The bill actually asks the commision to suggest ways to regulate and tax online > gaming. It also specifically calls for the licensing of online gaming sites. > > Here is the link to the site if anyone is interested.. > http://www.senate.gov/pagelayout/legislative/g_three_sections_with_teasers/legi > slative_home.htm Just do a keyword search for online gaming and look for > bill H.R.1223. > > All I'm saying is that this bill looks like a shining ray of hope for us and > the commision would certainly be the forum where the professional players and > casino owners would get a voice. It also looks as if someone has figured out > exactly how much money is to be made and is looking to control the wealth. > That's just fine with me as long as I can play poker in peace. > | ||
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| Re: Looking at the bills..., Guru, 27. Jul 2003 15:07 | ||
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| Well my way of looking at it is that if the government starts licensing sites, they will only license sites in the U.S. and try to make foreign sites illegal, therefore making new companies in the U.S. they can tax. | ||
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| Re: Looking at the bills..., Big_Slick, 27. Jul 2003 10:58 | ||
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| "Yes I'm a Bill and I'm only a Bill and I'm sitting here on Capitol Hill..." I love School House Rock. | ||
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| Re: Looking at the bills..., MozMan, 27. Jul 2003 11:30 | ||
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| Boy, that brings back memories... -Moz "I smoke 'cause I'm hoping for an early death, and I need to cling to something." | ||
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| Re: Looking at the bills..., gary ford, 27. Jul 2003 15:49 | ||
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| As cited by atty Nelson Rose in a recent Card Player article,states rights prevail in this area. If you reside in a state where poker is legal you are breaking no law, according to the language of the current legislation. Watch out however for the law of unintended consequences, the gove't is a master at screwing things up. gary-- fmr chairman of a commitee on gambling in california. | ||
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