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Server Time: 3/18/2010 9:25:49 PM PACIFIC |
 Paypal legal resolution, Mike Caro, 26. Jul 2003 11:15 | ||
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| I'd like you to read the following story and give your thoughts on it. http://news.com.com/2100-1019_3-5055237.html Are there any analogies that can be drawn to using a credit card in a foreign country for things that are legal there, but not in the U.S.A.? Do you feel United States citizens are being wisely protected by government action? Do you think, with the advent of the Internet and the borderless nature of enterprise, that this new "Wild West" will need to be more regulated. Or do you think that we can withstand a degree of chaos, if any shall exist? What issues do you see? Does this action, specific to gambling, open up other avenues of regulation -- good or bad? Did Paypal do the right thing by you? By its investors? Your turn... | ||
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| Re: Paypal legal resolution, tuffcat, 26. Jul 2003 11:45 | ||
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| on 26. Jul 2003 11:15 Mike Caro wrote: > I'd like you to read the following story and give your thoughts on it. > > http://news.com.com/2100-1019_3-5055237.html > > Are there any analogies that can be drawn to using a credit card in a foreign country for things that are legal there, but not in the U.S.A.? The biggest I see is the people who purchase medications not yet approved by the FDA via credit card from Europe. So, now, we have illegally purchased contraband crossing our border. I guess it makes those people criminals in the eyes of our government as well. Where will it stop? > Do you feel United States citizens are being wisely protected by government action? The only protection the government should concern itself with is the safety and security of such transacations because they won't be able to stop them. Soon the government will realize this and figure a way to capitalize on it so they get their bite. > Do you think, with the advent of the Internet and the borderless nature of enterprise, that this new "Wild West" will need to be more regulated. Or do you think that we can withstand a degree of chaos, if any shall exist? Yes, we will have a degree of chaos for awhile until it gets to be routine and again the only regulation I see appropriate is that of safety and security for the people. I don't see this as a moral issue, as I beleive the government does, but rather one of economics for all parties concerned. > What issues do you see? Does this action, specific to gambling, open up other avenues of regulation -- good or bad? They start with what they try to make appear as the best for the country but again it's all about control. What comes next? How about taxing email (not new subject) or better yet let's figure out a way to tax chat rooms or even better let's tax forums all by volume. UPF would pay a heavy fee . I think the government is getting into that is none of their business but again and again I say it'll all lead to a revenus machine somehow and someway for Uncle Sam and I would be fine with that if they did away with federal taxes. lol Just my 2 cents worth. I'm sure there are people alot smarter than I who may have a more insighful and indepth understanding of Uncle and how he works. | ||
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| Re: Paypal legal resolution, Bill A., 26. Jul 2003 13:22 | ||
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| Hello Mike Caro, I am an attorney and avid poker player. I am really concerned about this ruling and the broad and improper interpretation and application of the Patriot Act. The overiding issue here is that the online poker industry needs to obtain some high powered lobbyists that can go before the legislature with some well known poker pros and demonstrate that poker is indeed a game of skill rather than a game of chance. The bigger issue here is that online poker may very well become clearly ILLEGAL within the next couple of years, if our collective voice is not heard. As it stands now, online poker falls into a 'grey' area of the law. Although, both the Clinton and Bush administrations have taking the position that all online gambling is illegal for US residents. They have made no clear exception for poker. This greatly disturbs me. Bill A | ||
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| Re: Paypal legal resolution, spawgan, 26. Jul 2003 13:58 | ||
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| There is actually a bill that has passed the U.S.. Senate and is being considered in the U.S.. House that will all but make illegal any online gambling. This was done to get rid of the gray area you refer to. They will use the use of interstate commerce (which is needed to make a federal crime federal), specifically using phone lines, to access the internet and gamble illegal. I believe that the house will pass this bill and Bush will sign it. We need to have our collective voices heard or this activity will be made illegal. The supreme court has upheld similar laws and regulations, so our only hope to stop this is to make our voices known and stop the pending bill in the house. | ||
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| Re: Paypal legal resolution, Bill A., 26. Jul 2003 16:02 | ||
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| I could not agree with you more. The question now becomes how can we make our collective voice heard in a relevant way. I honestly believe that ambassadors of poker such as Mike Caro, Roy Cooke, Mike Sexton, Phil Hellmuth etc. need to organize the hiring of lobbyist quickly or online poker will soon be illegal. Technically, regardless of what we are told by many, it is not legal now. Many are willing to take the risk and play online poker and that is their right. I honestly do not think that there is any immediate risk of criminal charges being brought against a 'player.' As an attorney, I am not willing to take the risk. I just have too much at stake. I love the game of poker though, and I am looking into ways I can get more involved in the legislation of favorable laws. I am very upset by the prevalent attitude that the average American is too stupid to manage his own financial affairs and that big brother must protect us from our own carelessness. Bill A | ||
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| Re: Paypal legal resolution, Swagman, 26. Jul 2003 20:59 | ||
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| Can any of your tell me when and what percentage chance on-line gambling will be made illegal. Is it sometime within the next year for example. thanks any feedbank from people who know would help | ||
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| Re: Paypal legal resolution, Bill A., 27. Jul 2003 06:25 | ||
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| The sad truth is that technically online poker in NOT legal now. Both the Bush and Clinton administrations have held the positions that online gambling of any sort is illegal for a US citizen. It has been debated for years whether or not the wire act, other legislation, and now the patriot act should have implications that expand to prohibit a 'skill' game such as poker rather than a game of chance. If you take a look at the following link you can review the latest legal update from attorney Allyn Jafrey. http://www.cardplayer.com/newsletter/opn-allynjaffrey0703.html Hope this helps.......Bill A | ||
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| Re: Paypal legal resolution, spawgan, 26. Jul 2003 12:21 | ||
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| I can tell you this, I do criminal defense work for a living and this patriot act from a civil rights standpoint is about as scary as it gets. This act allows the justice department to claim that almost anything will relate to the trasmission of information in violation of the act whether it be terrorism, supposed money laundering, gambling activities, etc. And the scariest thing is many of the rights and protections guaranteed by the constitution are either extremely weakened or outright eliminated if something is deemed to be in violation of the patriot act and/or further terrorism. The scary thing is, it is a matter of time before the conservative right who wants to shut down online gambling will use the act to attack paypal, netteller, firepay and all the credit card companies so no-one will fund the online sites. What I really hopes happen is that when one of these companies are investigated they fight it and fight it all the way. I think eBay didn't fight this b/c of publicity and they want paypal to facilitate their core business. I have a feeling someone like firepay very well might fight and not settle. | ||
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| Re: Paypal legal resolution, Guru, 26. Jul 2003 12:54 | ||
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| Spawgan, I work for a credit union and I agree with you 100%. As a part of the banking industry, we are required to follow the Patriot Act with lots of new regulations. The fact is that some of them are very legit and good for the protection of our country, but certain members of our government are using scare tactics to expand powers into places the should never be. Come on, people, were playing a little poker or gambling a little in some other way. I don't have to tell you guys how stupid the hypocrisy is that our state governments are happy to live of the fat of a lottery that is the most stacked in favor of the house of any gambling in the world, but playing a little poker or blackjack is an evil that will bring the wrath of God upon us. How stupid is that? We wouldn't have to deal with some server in who-knows-what-country if our government would smarten up, regulate it here, and use the taxes to get us out of the new massive deficit we're in. Guru | ||
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| Re: Paypal legal resolution, PairTheBoard, 26. Jul 2003 17:18 | ||
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| If the Bill to outlaw internet gambling goes into law I would not hold my breath for an exception ever to be made for poker. It would be like trying to get an exception to Standard Operating Procedures in a Bureaucracy. Next to impossible. Maybe we will all have to set up personal offshore bank accounts to continue playing - as outlaws I guess. F-em. The Internet is bigger than any one country. | ||
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| Re: Paypal legal resolution, TAKEDOWN, 27. Jul 2003 05:25 | ||
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| to the last sentence, I say AAAAAAAAMEEEEN BROTHER BEN | ||
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| Re: Paypal legal resolution, johnph77, 27. Jul 2003 12:33 | ||
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| Did I miss the point? Is this study going to take two YEARS? Or is the issue tax revenue? | ||
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| Re: Paypal legal resolution, Slate, 28. Jul 2003 07:48 | ||
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| I do not mean to sound ignorant, but how was what PayPal doing any different than FirePay or Neteller? Is is because of the Credit Cards involved? | ||
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| Re: Paypal legal resolution, shorn, 28. Jul 2003 08:51 | ||
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| The bottom line is that any government regulation of private citizen's that violates the constitutional right to privacy is just another step toward socialism. Hell, the Supreme Court already trashed the 14th Amendment in the Bollinger decision...what should stop the pinheads in Washington from going further? The problem is that the average American has no idea what most of the decisions made by the government mean. As long as there are people who adopt the Hillary Clinton mantra of "It takes a Village", this country will continue to sink more and more toward communist, socialist, Marxist ideas. | ||
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| Re: Paypal legal resolution, gary ford, 29. Jul 2003 09:54 | ||
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| on 26. Jul 2003 11:15 Mike Caro wrote: > I'd like you to read the following story and give your thoughts on it. > > http://news.com.com/2100-1019_3-5055237.html > > Are there any analogies that can be drawn to using a credit card in a foreign > country for things that are legal there, but not in the U.S.A.? > > Do you feel United States citizens are being wisely protected by government > action? > > Do you think, with the advent of the Internet and the borderless nature of > enterprise, that this new "Wild West" will need to be more regulated. Or do you > think that we can withstand a degree of chaos, if any shall exist? > > What issues do you see? Does this action, specific to gambling, open up other > avenues of regulation -- good or bad? > > Did Paypal do the right thing by you? By its investors? > > Your turn... The only protection i need from the government is against terrorists. I don't consider poker gambling but a game of skill played for money. i also do not consider bridge or gin rummy to be gambling. Betting among individuals is their business not the governments. Since poker is legal in California and Nevada, what business is it of the federal government? Catch the terrorists and leave the poker players alone!! " And the truth shall set you free"--Gary | ||
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| Re: Paypal legal resolution, stdioh, 29. Jul 2003 12:13 | ||
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| The long and short of it is this. Any company wants to protect themselves from catastrophic losses via legal action or anything else. Corporate entities are by definition cowardly. Thus, the only way to allow internet poker to reign unchequed is to protect the companies that facilitate it. That means a change to the rules of credit card fraud, etc. Allow the companies the freedom to do business without fear and they will. | ||
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