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Server Time: 3/20/2010 7:43:35 PM PACIFIC |
 Short Handed Draw Poker, PokerDude, 26. Jul 2003 07:04 | ||
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| i've been playing a lot of Draw Poker lately. Been doing really well in ring games and in tourneys, but my biggest leak is my short-handed game. When their are eight players at the table, I play my usual tight game, usually sticking with Aces or better. I know that when it is short handed I should raise with hands I would normally call with, and call with hands I normally wouldn't play, but I'm having trouble figuring how low I should go with the pairs I play 3 and 4 handed. Lets say we are playing with blinds, I'm on the button, and know the players behind me will not raise. Should I be playing 8's or better? Lower? Should I call in the little blind with any pair if it is heads up? Thank you in advance, I know table time is the best tool, but looking for a head up in these matters... Good day and good luck to everyone today | ||
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| Re: Short Handed Draw Poker, Mike Caro, 26. Jul 2003 12:32 | ||
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| on 26. Jul 2003 07:04 PokerDude wrote: > i've been playing a lot of Draw Poker lately. Been doing really well in ring > games and in tourneys, but my biggest leak is my short-handed game. When their > are eight players at the table, I play my usual tight game, usually sticking > with Aces or better. I know that when it is short handed I should raise with > hands I would normally call with, and call with hands I normally wouldn't play, > but I'm having trouble figuring how low I should go with the pairs I play 3 and > 4 handed. > > Lets say we are playing with blinds, I'm on the button, and know the players > behind me will not raise. Should I be playing 8's or better? > Lower? Should I call in the little blind with any pair if it is heads up? > > Thank you in advance, I know table time is the best tool, but looking for a > head up in these matters... > > Good day and good luck to everyone today Hi, PokerDude -- Assuming there are no opening requirements, such as a pair of jacks or better (which was once a common form of draw poker) and that there's no joker in the deck (another common practice in the past), then I think these four-handed guidelines will serve you well. Of course (before presenting them), it matters whether there's a blind (now fairly common) or whether antes are used, or a combination of the two. It also matters whether it's pass-and-your-out or whether you can check and then raise or call (in an ante game). Let me guess that it's a two-blind game, with both blinds to the left of the dealer position. Approximate minimum opening requirements (close to what I've previously published, but probably not exact).: 1st to act: 9-9 or a straight or flush draw with some high cards included. 2nd to act (1st player folded): 5-5 or a straight or flush draw with at least one high card. small blind (attacking the big blind): A-J or higher (meaning a three-card draw, not four, although occasionally you CAN actually raise and draw four, depending on the opponent). Here, you should often BREAK a one-card straight or flush draw to draw three to high cards, AND you usually should NOT draw to a small straight or flush. big blind (defending): You should have at least approximately the hand that a rational raiser would have needed, using the standards above. But, you may more liberally call with a straight or flush draw, and often with A-K and A-Q and such three-card draws, because of your increased pot odds (being that you have half the bet already entered), In the past, I have published exact standards for draw poker (various forms). If anyone has access to them, feel free to post the information. Straight Flushes, Mike Caro | ||
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| Re: Short Handed Draw Poker, Michael Wiesenberg, 26. Jul 2003 20:41 | ||
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| Mr. PokerDude, While I completely respect everything Mike has to say about draw poker, and, in fact adapted his charts for my book "Free Money: How to Win in the Cardrooms of California," I must beg to differ slightly with the hands he suggests playing. Card Player magazine this issue has my strategy for playing online draw poker, which is essentially the game Mike is describing. The article is here: http://www.cardplayer.com/?sec=afeature&art_id=13413 I agree with the play of the blinds, but I disagree for the other two positions. I recommend opening from the cutoff with a pair of tens if the hand also has one ace as a sidecard or two other cards higher than the tens. Otherwise, jacks or better. The cutoff, of course, in a four- handed game with two blinds is also the first position. On the button, nines if the hand also has one ace as a sidecard or two other cards higher than the nines. Otherwise, tens or better. How did I come up with these hands? I used Mike's Poker Probe to ascertain what hand was better than three other random hands and what hand was better than two other random hands. That is, when you have three opponents with unknown hands, you want a hand that does better than 25% against three random hands. And 33% against two. I don't think that you should ever limp from one of the non-blind positions because then you give the blinds hugely favorable odds (infinite for the big blind) to draw out on you; consequently, I think Mike's opening requirements are too loose for those two positions. That is, he doesn't say this, but I'm guessing he wants you to limp in front with those two nines and ditto next with the two fives. If you limp, it's too easy for a sharp player with as little as a pair of tens to raise you, and then you are worse than a 3-to-1 dog. Yes, you may be getting better than 3-to-1 to call, but you will still lose more than 3/4 of those confrontations and often cost yourself one or more big bets after the draw. And I think you should hardly ever open with a come hand from one of the two non-blind positions. You almost NEVER are getting either immediate pot odds or eventual pot odds to justify that play. I think you can do it once in awhile--but only rarely--to mix up your play, so your opponents don't think you always have two pair or trips when you draw one card. But my observation of online draw poker is that most players draw far too often to straights and flushes. I see them come in cold for two and three bets to do it. Even if they were guaranteed a call by the other player every single time, they still would not be getting money odds. Anyway, maybe we can refine the answers if you tell us what the playing conditions are, as Mike suggested. Michael Wiesenberg Editor, CardPlayer.com and On Line Poker Newsletter (free newsletters) q@cardplayer.com http://www.cardplayer.com/ on 26. Jul 2003 12:32 Mike Caro wrote: > on 26. Jul 2003 07:04 PokerDude wrote: > > i've been playing a lot of Draw Poker lately. Been doing really well in ring > > games and in tourneys, but my biggest leak is my short-handed game. When their > > are eight players at the table, I play my usual tight game, usually sticking > > with Aces or better. I know that when it is short handed I should raise with > > hands I would normally call with, and call with hands I normally wouldn't play, > > but I'm having trouble figuring how low I should go with the pairs I play 3 and > > 4 handed. > > > > Lets say we are playing with blinds, I'm on the button, and know the players > > behind me will not raise. Should I be playing 8's or better? > > Lower? Should I call in the little blind with any pair if it is heads up? > > > > Thank you in advance, I know table time is the best tool, but looking for a > > head up in these matters... > > > > Good day and good luck to everyone today > > Hi, PokerDude -- > > Assuming there are no opening requirements, such as a pair of jacks or better (which > was once a common form of draw poker) and that there's no joker in the deck (another > common practice in the past), then I think these four-handed guidelines will serve > you well. > > Of course (before presenting them), it matters whether there's a blind (now fairly > common) or whether antes are used, or a combination of the two. It also matters > whether it's pass-and-your-out or whether you can check and then raise or call (in an > ante game). > > Let me guess that it's a two-blind game, with both blinds to the left of the dealer > position. > > Approximate minimum opening requirements (close to what I've previously published, > but probably not exact).: > > 1st to act: 9-9 or a straight or flush draw with some high cards included. > > 2nd to act (1st player folded): 5-5 or a straight or flush draw with at least one > high card. > > small blind (attacking the big blind): A-J or higher (meaning a three-card draw, not > four, although occasionally you CAN actually raise and draw four, depending on the > opponent). Here, you should often BREAK a one-card straight or flush draw to draw > three to high cards, AND you usually should NOT draw to a small straight or flush. > > big blind (defending): You should have at least approximately the hand that a > rational raiser would have needed, using the standards above. But, you may more > liberally call with a straight or flush draw, and often with A-K and A-Q and such > three-card draws, because of your increased pot odds (being that you have half the > bet already entered), > > In the past, I have published exact standards for draw poker (various forms). If > anyone has access to them, feel free to post the information. > > Straight Flushes, > Mike Caro | ||
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| Re: Short Handed Draw Poker, Mike Caro, 29. Jul 2003 05:51 | ||
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| on 26. Jul 2003 20:41 Michael Wiesenberg wrote: > Mr. PokerDude, > > While I completely respect everything Mike has to say about draw > poker, and, in fact adapted his charts for my book "Free Money: > How to Win in the Cardrooms of California," I must beg to differ > slightly with the hands he suggests playing. Card Player magazine > this issue has my strategy for playing online draw poker, which > is essentially the game Mike is describing. The article is here: > > http://www.cardplayer.com/?sec=afeature&art_id=13413 > > I agree with the play of the blinds, but I disagree for the other > two positions. > > I recommend opening from the cutoff with a pair of tens if the hand > also has one ace as a sidecard or two other cards higher than the > tens. Otherwise, jacks or better. The cutoff, of course, in a four- > handed game with two blinds is also the first position. On the button, > nines if the hand also has one ace as a sidecard or two other cards higher than the > nines. Otherwise, tens or better. > > How did I come up with these hands? I used Mike's Poker Probe > to ascertain what hand was better than three other random hands > and what hand was better than two other random hands. That is, > when you have three opponents with unknown hands, you want > a hand that does better than 25% against three random hands. > And 33% against two. > > I don't think that you should ever limp from one of the non-blind > positions because then you give the blinds hugely favorable > odds (infinite for the big blind) to draw out on you; consequently, > I think Mike's opening requirements are too loose for those two > positions. That is, he doesn't say this, but I'm guessing he > wants you to limp in front with those two nines and ditto next > with the two fives. If you limp, it's too easy for a sharp player > with as little as a pair of tens to raise you, and then you are > worse than a 3-to-1 dog. Yes, you may be getting better than > 3-to-1 to call, but you will still lose more than 3/4 of those > confrontations and often cost yourself one or more big bets > after the draw. And I think you should hardly ever open with > a come hand from one of the two non-blind positions. You > almost NEVER are getting either immediate pot odds or > eventual pot odds to justify that play. I think you can do it > once in awhile--but only rarely--to mix up your play, so your > opponents don't think you always have two pair or trips > when you draw one card. But my observation of online > draw poker is that most players draw far too often to > straights and flushes. I see them come in cold for two > and three bets to do it. Even if they were guaranteed a > call by the other player every single time, they still would > not be getting money odds. > > Anyway, maybe we can refine the answers if you tell us what > the playing conditions are, as Mike suggested. > > Michael Wiesenberg > Editor, CardPlayer.com and On Line Poker Newsletter (free newsletters) > q@cardplayer.com > http://www.cardplayer.com/ > > on 26. Jul 2003 12:32 Mike Caro wrote: > > on 26. Jul 2003 07:04 PokerDude wrote: > > > i've been playing a lot of Draw Poker lately. Been doing really well in ring > > > games and in tourneys, but my biggest leak is my short-handed game. When their > > > are eight players at the table, I play my usual tight game, usually sticking > > > with Aces or better. I know that when it is short handed I should raise with > > > hands I would normally call with, and call with hands I normally wouldn't play, > > > but I'm having trouble figuring how low I should go with the pairs I play 3 and > > > 4 handed. > > > > > > Lets say we are playing with blinds, I'm on the button, and know the players > > > behind me will not raise. Should I be playing 8's or better? > > > Lower? Should I call in the little blind with any pair if it is heads up? > > > > > > Thank you in advance, I know table time is the best tool, but looking for a > > > head up in these matters... > > > > > > Good day and good luck to everyone today > > > > Hi, PokerDude -- > > > > Assuming there are no opening requirements, such as a pair of jacks or better (which > > was once a common form of draw poker) and that there's no joker in the deck (another > > common practice in the past), then I think these four-handed guidelines will serve > > you well. > > > > Of course (before presenting them), it matters whether there's a blind (now fairly > > common) or whether antes are used, or a combination of the two. It also matters > > whether it's pass-and-your-out or whether you can check and then raise or call (in an > > > ante game). > > > > Let me guess that it's a two-blind game, with both blinds to the left of the dealer > > position. > > > > Approximate minimum opening requirements (close to what I've previously published, > > but probably not exact).: > > > > 1st to act: 9-9 or a straight or flush draw with some high cards included. > > > > 2nd to act (1st player folded): 5-5 or a straight or flush draw with at least one > > high card. > > > > small blind (attacking the big blind): A-J or higher (meaning a three-card draw, not > > four, although occasionally you CAN actually raise and draw four, depending on the > > opponent). Here, you should often BREAK a one-card straight or flush draw to draw > > three to high cards, AND you usually should NOT draw to a small straight or flush. > > > > big blind (defending): You should have at least approximately the hand that a > > rational raiser would have needed, using the standards above. But, you may more > > liberally call with a straight or flush draw, and often with A-K and A-Q and such > > three-card draws, because of your increased pot odds (being that you have half the > > bet already entered), > > > > In the past, I have published exact standards for draw poker (various forms). If > > anyone has access to them, feel free to post the information. > > > > Straight Flushes, > > Mike Caro Hi, Michael -- I have no problem with the standards you're suggesting. To me, they're a little too conservative for a skillful player who can maximize his advantage on the second round of betting, but they're close enough. Also, there are hands that you SHOULD just call with from any position sometimes. You're right in saying that this gives the blinds much better pot odds (in fact, it gives the big blind "infinite" pot odds if there's not raise -- a freeroll). But there are times when -- despite this -- you can make more profit by allowing that potential freeroll. Sometimes it isn't just a matter of more profit. That's because sometimes a hand is profitable if you just call, but will lose money if you raise. And, of course, sometimes the converse is true, you can make a little money by raising, but a call may be unprofitable -- which is, I think, the point you're making. Anyway, thanks for an interesting post and for your participation on UPF. I actually agree pretty much with what you're saying. Straight Flushes, Mike Caro | ||
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| Re: Short Handed Draw Poker, Michael Wiesenberg, 29. Jul 2003 10:48 | ||
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| Mike: I agree with your point that sometimes you should just call from some positions, but that is a refinement I thought too rare for a simplified discussion of how to play four-handed limit draw poker. For example, I would limp in first position with either a straight flush draw or four of a kind, hands that I want volume on--and then reraise if I got raised. But I would not limp in any of the other two opening positions (four-handed you've got just the button and little blind left). I want to try to win the pot right there with any hand, but, if I don't, I want to set it up to take the pot after the draw if I get called. Since I normally raise-open, it looks awfully suspicious if I limp. Thus, if I limp with my straight flush draw and miss the draw, I'm going to have a hard time winning the pot after the draw. I don't think limping is good four-handed; I think you have to be aggressive in such a short game. Aggressive, or give up (that is, not open). You didn't give examples, but I suspect you think a player should limp with a flush draw that has an ace or two face cards or a staight draw topped by a queen or higher, due to the extra outs of pairing the high cards. I disagree, because I think that aware opponents who then raise with high pairs have a considerable edge. The further refinement on why I disagree is that if I limp with drawing hands, I also have to limp sometimes with big hands, or else I tell observant opponents what I have when I limp. Sure, I MAY have four of a kind, but most of the time I have a come hand--so please raise me and put me at a disadvantage. Yes, you can balance it by sometimes limping with big hands, but I think that has you then limping too often. Anyway, since you weren't specific, and if you agree that the topic is interesting, I'd like to keep this dialog going. Michael Wiesenberg Editor, CardPlayer.com and On Line Poker Newsletter (free newsletters) q@cardplayer.com Go to http://www.cardplayer.com/?sec=newsletter to subscribe | ||
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