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Server Time: 12/1/2008 3:21:22 PM PACIFIC |
 1-table set-and-go tourneys, Don Quixote, 25. Jul 2003 12:30 | ||
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| The following post taken from RGP by Russ G. gives his strategy for the SnG tourneys on Party Poker. Could we have a discussion on this strategy? I would appreciate very much reading your opinions and advice. Thanks in advance. <<<How to beat the single table NO LIMIT ONLINE Tournaments The first thing to realize is these single table tournaments are not like multi table ones. The vast majority of the players are terrible. We will take a $33 single 10 handed tournament from Party Poker and go through it step by step. The first you know is you receive T800 in chips. The blinds start at 10-15 for 10 hands, progress to 15-30 for 10 hands, proceed to 25-50 for 10 hands and then reach 50-100 for 10 hands. Then the blinds keep going higher every 10 hands. Smart play dictates you play EXTREMELY tight the first 3 rounds. You may want to try this as an experiment just to see the validity of what I am about to tell you. Buy into the tournament and push the away from the table button. Wait for the 1st three rounds to go by and then start playing. Your stack at this time would be -25 for the 1st round of blinds. -45 for the second round of blinds and -75 for the 3rd round of blinds. You would now have a stack of T655 and would be ready to play. Probably the tournament would be down to 6 people by now. You also have not played a hand and people are aware of it. Try this with a $5 0r $10 tourney and see what happens. Don't think you are now entitled to go into the game trying to steal. You now wait, being much aware of your position. The blinds will be 50-100 now and when you make your 1st move, bet your whole stack. It doesn't matter if you have AA or AK, bet your whole stack.. These one table tournaments are not like multi table ones. When you open, move you whole stack in if it is small. Much larger stack still require opening bets of approximately 10 to 1 or all your chips. You will find this is a difficult style to combat when playing these one table tourneys. The problem most people have playing the early stages is the blinds are small and people tend to play to lose. Throw away small pairs, AJ and such. Don't even think of playing these hands when opening the pot. First of all, most have no idea of how much to open with. Say the blinds are 10-15. You are dealt a pair of 10's. What do you open with? What happens if you are called? Forget about playing these hands except in the blinds or on the button. What happens in the early stages of these tourneys means very little. Better to get the blinds than go out losing your money in bits and pieces. First under the gun with AA, bet all your chips. Many of these people call with pairs and Ax. I have seen some of the most atrocious play possible in these tourneys. A person stacks off before the flop and is called by a pair of 33 or so. The best the person could have is in the probability of a coin toss, if not much worse. At the beginning of these NO LIMIT tourneys, play ever chip like it was your last. The tourney starts when you hit the 50-100 blind area. By this time, you will probably be down to 6 players and have a whole different perspective on the game. Stop opening with A6s,KQs, or garbage like this. If you can't stick all your chips into the pot, don't open. Obviously you will find times you will be dealt a pair of KK in the 10-15 blinds. Obviously if you stack off, you may and will run into AA. Problem is if you do, you will get broke anyway, just in a different manner. Try the method I am explaining to you. It will work and many times when you do stack off, you will be surprised what calls you. Stealing the blinds comes later on in the tourney, at the 50-100 part. Here when down to 5-6 players, you will be forced to attempt steals. Though not really steals from a sense. Here you can stack off with smaller pairs and Ax when on the button or one away. Isolation is the key to winning these tourneys. Take on and beat 1 player and save enough chips to be able to take a blind or two without a mandatory call because your stack is too small, when you get down to 6 players or so. The number 1 priority is to get to the final 3 and a payoff. These tourneys are a waiting game. Wait, even if you don't play a hand for the first 3 rounds. Avoid the multi way pots and dumb medium pairs when opened in front of you. Wait until the tourney gets short so you can stack off and get you 1 on 1 encounter. Once you make the money, then you can play. Remember one thing most of you don't know what to do. Early position, you are dealt a pair of JJ with blinds of 15-30. What to do? Dump them and listen to what I say. If you raise 60. 100 or 150, what happens? What happens when a over card hits? What happens if you get multi callers? Realize all this does is hurt you. For even if you do win a few hundred or double up, the tournaments starts when the blinds go to 50-100. One of the last things you want to call on of these all-in bets with is with a small pair. Save playing these when you can stack off when down to 4 or 5 people. Far better to bet them, don't call with them, unless down to the last 2 or 3. This is probably the best way to become proficient at these small one table satellites. Don't gamble and play hands early. It doesn't matter what you do until you reach the 50-100 level. Just make sure you have enough chips to be able to get the blinds without showing down. Winning without showing your hand is a big benefit in these satellites. Obviously you will get nailed by a big pair once in a while, but remember, you are also playing them and only them early in the tourney. Either stack off, bet half your stack or fold. VERY SIMPLE. Just stop losing these 30's 15's and other small amounts. I guarantee you will have much better tournament success with this advice than any you have ever received before. Russ G>>> I am going to give it a try. I hope I understand his strategy correctly. Please critique his strategy and post your opinion and advice. Don Quixote | ||
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| Re: 1-table set-and-go tourneys, Mike812, 25. Jul 2003 12:39 | ||
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| His strategy works well. But what happens when you dont pick up a hand in the 4th or 5th round? | ||
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| Re: 1-table set-and-go tourneys, Dr_Monkey, 25. Jul 2003 12:55 | ||
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| I like this strategy. I played a $5 NL SNG last night. Had JJ in EP in the 1st round. 9 players left. I put in 3 BB bet. Got 2 callers. Flop was all lower than J, no suiting, or str8 draws. I bet 100. Got 2 callers again. Turn was K. Checked around. (maybe should have bet, but after a 100 on the flop didn't think they would fold now). River was Q. Guy turns over Q5. Lost 145 in that hand that would have got me to the money if I kept it to the 50/100 limit. Told myself then to to play any more early rounds. Once you get to level 4, 50/100, his is strategy to go all in just to steal the blinds? Regardless of what your hand is? Did I read that correctly? I think that will work the first time unless someone is holding AA, KK, or AK. You would have a tight image and an all in bet would be hard to call pre-flop by even the fishiest of fish. I think if you watch the first 3 rounds you can see who is playing tight and try to steal their blinds, especially from MP or LP when it is checked to you. At 50/100, a 3x BB should work. After you do an all in to steal the first time, a 3x BB might be 1/2 your stack, which he recommends. I like this strategy and will try it tonite. | ||
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| Minority game, pt_Gatsby, 25. Jul 2003 13:17 | ||
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| This particular game method works only for the minority of the players. You also are in a very bad position against the players that have won out early (putting you at a bad starting position)... and you undertake the risk of not getting decent hands, or being stolen from repeatably. Otherwise works good. Just important to note that for every player eliminated, the remaining players that are playing gain an advantage over you. In fact, if 3 players are eliminated then you are looking at each of the remaining 5 players having 1.6 + your blinds more chips than you. Its like starting shortstacked. The key words in that article are "Bad players" and "bad plays". It protects you from random variation at the guaranteed decrease in relative value... err... For those that are traders, that'll make sense, probably! When playing against bad players, which will be eliminated (theoretically) first, you are just protecting yourself at that and saying that the initial smaller starting chips is worth it. I don't agree, personally. I imagine sometimes it can, and it probably does against some players... but I definately can't see even attempting this at a decent level. The UPF tournament is a good example. The one person who couldn't show ended up 15th. That means 12 of us were eliminated before him. That doesn't make it a mistake for those 12 to have been playing - they were playing for relative advantage, which someone else gained instead of them. | ||
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| Re: 1-table set-and-go tourneys, stdioh, 25. Jul 2003 14:18 | ||
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| I think that this is a very simple approach. I certainly wouldn't call it optimal play. Certainly he touches on some important points and playing exactly as he says would be a much better strategy than most of those I see being employed at cheap sit-n-gos, but I would say that playing like this you can't be realistically hoping to beat the tournament game by much at all. | ||
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| Re: 1-table set-and-go tourneys, gary ford, 25. Jul 2003 16:38 | ||
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| on 25. Jul 2003 14:18 stdioh wrote: > I think that this is a very simple approach. I certainly wouldn't call it optimal > play. Certainly he touches on some important points and playing exactly as he says > would be a much better strategy than most of those I see being employed at cheap > sit-n-gos, but I would say that playing like this you can't be realistically hoping > to beat the tournament game by much at all. It is always good to play tight, but to forfeit your hands from the first 3 rounds doesn't seem to make much sense. What if you get a rush of premium hands and great flops enabling you to beome CL and 'bully" the table. I play 7 or 8 low buy in SNGs every day. Sometimes i limp in to 5th or even 4th with a short stack. If i get lucky, the others will knock each other out while i hide. It usually doesn't work, and i have to pick a spot to go all-in with a short stack and then go allin again to avoid being blinded off. However when i go all-in early with one of the top 3 and double up to 1600 or so, i can easily make the cash.When i get beat, i just get beat sooner rather than later. I do agree the SNGs start at 50/100 but you better have some bullets it all depends--Gary | ||
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| Re: 1-table set-and-go tourneys, Andrew Wells, 25. Jul 2003 18:16 | ||
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| We're in agreement on this one. The strategy outlined is probably good enough to achieve break even play at best. Not all of these tourney's feature four or five total fish that will be knocked out by level 4. Assuming you have poor position for the initial hand, having several players knocked out in the first couple of levels will cost you more in blinds than 145, realisticly 220. Someone is probably going to have a stack in the range of triple your 570 at this point. Such a stack can afford to take a shot at calling you when you wake up and play a hand. The big stack is not always going to be on your right, so you are essentially risking the whole tourney on one hand anyway when you decide to shove all-in. It is easy to have played a single table event without ever getting AA KK or AK dealt to you. You will be missing some +EV opportunities to limp in a multiway pot from late position. Catching the right flop for a cheap bet can often mean the difference between playing the whole thing short, and having a real chance win outright. | ||
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| Re: 1-table set-and-go tourneys, Don Quixote, 25. Jul 2003 21:21 | ||
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| Thanks everyone. I have played several S&G's since I posted, and I agree that Russ'es strategy is NOT for me. You are so right, Andrew, about posting more than once per level if there are early bust outs. I saw it happen a few times tonight. The rest of your post is right on also. Of course, knowing that this strategy doesnt work for me, I still havent found one that does....lol Don Quixote on 25. Jul 2003 18:16 Andrew Wells wrote: > We're in agreement on this one. The strategy outlined is probably good enough to achieve > break even play at best. Not all of these tourney's feature four or five total fish that > will be knocked out by level 4. Assuming you have poor position for the initial hand, > having several players knocked out in the first couple of levels will cost you more in > blinds than 145, realisticly 220. Someone is probably going to have a stack in the range > of triple your 570 at this point. Such a stack can afford to take a shot at calling you > when you wake up and play a hand. The big stack is not always going to be on your right, > so you are essentially risking the whole tourney on one hand anyway when you decide to > shove all-in. It is easy to have played a single table event without ever getting AA KK or > AK dealt to you. You will be missing some +EV opportunities to limp in a multiway pot from > late position. Catching the right flop for a cheap bet can often mean the difference > between playing the whole thing short, and having a real chance win outright. | ||
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| Re: 1-table set-and-go tourneys, palman, 26. Jul 2003 10:00 | ||
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| To elaborate on russ's point..... in the early rounds dont drop everything... just play either the great hands (AK, AA, AK, etc) or the hands that if they hit, you basically know you have the best hands. Any pp I will play as long as there isnt a huge preflop raise. Most Axs Kxs I will play as long as I can get in cheap as well. Most people play any ace... so a Flop of A75 rainbow if you have pocket 5's most likely will double you up. The key is just not trying to "play" people or guess if they have a hand or not, in the early levels, because many great bluffs will get called by bottom pair, so they're often not worth it. My strategy isnt just to play once the blinds are 50/100.... its to find one hand to double up with in those first 30, and go for it. | ||
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| Re: 1-table set-and-go tourneys, Andrew Wells, 27. Jul 2003 01:10 | ||
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| That's a vastly superior way of handling the SNGs with goofballs involved. | ||
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| Re: 1-table set-and-go tourneys, chasepoker, 27. Jul 2003 06:45 | ||
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| I think the point Russ ( who is Russ everyone seems to know him is he a top US player ?) is missing is that you have to react to each individual game his strategy is good if it all goes to plan but what if one of the weaker players gets chips and is leader on the 50-100 stage ? He will call your all in bets in 2 seconds and you have not helped yourself at all ( you may as well have done it earlier ). If you a novice or have not played much poker then what he says is ok but any player with an fair ammount of card sense should be able to adapt to each game and beat it using the correct strategy for the table. I have played in a lot of s and g's and whilst being tight early is ok, if you know people are calling all in pre flop with garbage you would be a fool to miss out on the advantages to be made early on. Chasepoker | ||
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| Re: 1-table set-and-go tourneys, Nathaniel Brous, 27. Jul 2003 10:08 | ||
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| on 27. Jul 2003 06:45 chasepoker wrote: > I think the point Russ ( who is Russ everyone seems to know him is he a top US player ?) <snip> Russ Georgiev burst on to the poker scene through the r.g.p. He is a self admitting cheat. He (and others) were interviewed by Mike Caro on the issue of cheating in poker. He says he is a WCP (world class player). He has made a great deal of claims about a great many people. If you have the time, you can wade through the innumerable (many thousands) posts he has made in rec. gambling poker. He posts so often, that like a machine gun, he will eventually hit the mark on occasion. Be aware of this and remember not to take his posts (or anyone else's) as gospel. - Nathaniel Brous | ||
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| Re: 1-table set-and-go tourneys, stdioh, 29. Jul 2003 12:24 | ||
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| Yes, Russ is to poker what Archimedes Plutonium is to physics. | ||
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| Re: 1-table set-and-go tourneys, TexRoadkill, 29. Jul 2003 14:54 | ||
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| I have to agree that the only thing this strategy is good for is lasting to the middle of the pack. But what good is that if you don't have any muscle to make into the top 3? I've found my best games are made by taking out the fish early and having a strong stack for when the blinds get bigger. I think part of the defensive strategy of a SNG isn't just to survive but make sure that no other single player gets too strong. As soon as somebody gets a 4-1 chip advantage they are pretty hard to beat. For me the challenge is to not get too cocky when I have the big stack and start making stupid calls against short stack all ins. | ||
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