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Server Time: 11/19/2008 3:37:45 PM PACIFIC |
 overcards., mongi, 25. Jul 2003 11:37 | ||
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| I think that I have a slight leak with playing or not playing overcards in certain situations. I am going to describe what I think about in general when I make the decision to call raise or fold on the flop. Assume a typical 4-8 holdem game. Its also a multiway pot. 1) I should be getting at least 7-1 pot odds to call, assuming both my outs are clean. Is this correct? are there times you would call with worse pot odds? 2)If the flop is ragged and I don't fear a raise I will usually take a card off with AK. What scares me hear is that someone may have flopped a pair with an ace kicker. In situations like this I must have a good read on who is in the pot with me and what their position is. Do they play any ace? are they playing from the blinds? etc. 3) If I am in late position and I am getting decent odds I will call with hands like QJ KJ AJ, once again assuming I believe my outs are clean. 4) I may play hands like those above from early position if for instance, I have a backdoor flush possibility or I am in the hand with very loose passive players. 5) If you do hit one of your cards on the turn and the flop bettor continues to bet on the turn would you be more inclined to call or raise. I think that if there are no draws I may just call but if it appears players behind me are drawing I will raise especially with AK. Is this too aggressive? If I had raised preflop and An ace or king hit on the turn and people were still betting into me I think I would just call. I also think that chances are good that if you had QJ and hit one of your cards on the turn your hand is good at this point. Even more so than AK because of the two pair possibility. Althought there is a better chance that an overcard will hit on the river to beat you. Or is it best in most of these situations just to muck your hand and move on? Sometimes I believe you are not losing much if you were to do this. Thanks for your time. | ||
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| Re: overcards., Mike812, 25. Jul 2003 11:43 | ||
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| Overcards are real tough hands to muck. But I believe the best time to muck is on the flop. If you missed your hand, muck them. Dont waste anymore bets. There is a good chance someone hit the top pair, and you dont want your A-K to get beat by a pair of 8s. Also, with a lot of callers you have a higher chance of being beat. Especially, if you missed the flop. Just calling a bet to see the turn is no different than chasing a straight or flush. But, the main difference is that the straight and flush will pay you off more than hitting an A or K on the turn. Lets say you hit the A or K. Your opponents can have two pair, straight draw, flush draw etc. There are so many hands that can beat you. I almost never chase the A or K unless I have a straight or flush draw. Mike | ||
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| Re: overcards., Roy Cooke, 25. Jul 2003 14:07 | ||
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| My answers are underneath the questions: Roy Cooke on 25. Jul 2003 11:37 mongi wrote: > I think that I have a slight leak with playing or not playing overcards in > certain situations. I am going to describe what I think about in general when I > make the decision to call raise or fold on the flop. Assume a typical 4-8 holdem > game. Its also a multiway pot. > > 1) I should be getting at least 7-1 pot odds to call, assuming both my outs are > clean. Is this correct? are there times you would call with worse pot odds? Roy Says: You need to actualize 7-1 odds overall (Including all trials)for your bet to be about even (Or neutral)...This includes when you win...when you lose,....Bets you win after making your hand.....Bets you lose after making your hand. If you get raised behind you...ect. Roy says: Assessing your chances of actualizing an expectation comes from experience. If you lack the experience err on the conservative side. > > 2)If the flop is ragged and I don't fear a raise I will usually take a card off > with AK. What scares me hear is that someone may have flopped a pair with an ace > kicker. In situations like this I must have a good read on who is in the pot > with me and what their position is. Do they play any ace? Are they playing from > the blinds? etc. Roy says: I often think overcards without an ace are stronger than overcards with an ace..As long as your KQ (example) is not in danger of being agaisnt an AQ or AK....That is because more players will play a A-rag than a K-rag or Q-rag and already have a pair with a kicker that matches your overcards. > > 3) If I am in late position and I am getting decent odds I will call with hands > like QJ KJ AJ, once again assuming I believe my outs are clean. Roy says:How good are your assumptions? The greater the chance I may still lose if I hit, the greater I must extend the odds the pot is laying me to draw! > > 4) I may play hands like those above from early position if for instance, I > have a backdoor flush possibility or I am in the hand with very loose passive > players. Roy says: Both things add strenth to the hand...The backdoor flush increases the chance of you winning and reduces the price required to draw . Loose passive players are more likely to give you two cards for the price of one and/or pay you off! Good thinking! > > 5) If you do hit one of your cards on the turn and the flop bettor continues to > bet on the turn would you be more inclined to call or raise. I think that if > there are no draws I may just call but if it appears players behind me are > drawing I will raise especially with AK. Is this too aggressive? If I had raised > preflop and An ace or king hit on the turn and people were still betting into me > I think I would just call. I also think that chances are good that if you had QJ > and hit one of your cards on the turn your hand is good at this point. Even more > so than AK because of the two pair possibility. Although there is a better > chance that an overcard will hit on the river to beat you. > > Or is it best in most of these situations just to muck your hand and move on? > Sometimes I believe you are not losing much if you were to do this. Roy says: If I would raise would depend upon the texture of my opponent, the situaion and who is left to act behind me....It is a judgment call and a tough one.....If I have good reading ability over my opponent or have players to act behind me I am more inclined to raise....that is not true in every case. > > Thanks for your time. | ||
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| Re: overcards., Asher, 25. Jul 2003 16:27 | ||
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| I think Roy Cooke should be commended for spending so much time explaining things to the new players on this forum. He is definitely giving back to poker, and others should follow his lead. More experienced players know how to play overcards very well based on the situation and the game they are involved in. For example, AK has more value in a $20/40 game in late position than it will in a $2/4 game with many opponents. My advice is to pay attention to your opponents, and, with experience, you'll know what do to with them when those situations occur. | ||
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| Re: overcards., stdioh, 25. Jul 2003 14:24 | ||
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| Overcards are often a giant waste of money. If for any reason you think that you should fold your overcards, then you should. Playing AK as overcards is nice since you know that if you hit you have the best 1 pair hand, but even then you could have an opponent sitting on bottom pair with an ace, etc. It is very hard to know that your hand is good. Basicaly you have to multiply the anxiety you would have with a made good pair with good kicker holding up by the chance of actually making it. The long and short of it, if you think there is a decent chance that your overcards give you the best hand without them hitting then you might draw to them. If the overcards have some other outs too (like say a gutshot) then they can be worth drawing to. But in general, drawing to overcards costs money more than it pays off. | ||
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| Re: overcards., shorn, 28. Jul 2003 05:25 | ||
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| I think there are two keys to playing overcards correctly: 1. Knowing your opponents. If you are new to a game or don't yet have a good read on what your opponents will bet, call, raise with, then continuing on with overcards after the flop is a very risk proposition. You very well may hit and still lose to two pair (especially if one of your cards is an Ace), so it becomes a money suck. So, know your opponents and know them well. 2. At least as important is board texture compared to your cards. If there is a chance that hitting one of my cards could make someone a str8 (especially in games 5-10 and below), then the odds that i need to continue must be significantly higher. Foe example, if i held AQo and the board was J93 rainbow, hitting my Q could cost me a ton of $$. I want a very clean board to continue with this hand or enormous pot odds. Finally, if you are going to play them on the flop, then they are definitely worth raising if you think you can limit the field behind you. I would never just call a bet with these hands (unless heads up already), because then you are just inviting folks behind you to draw at a better price. Raise or fold, pure and simple. | ||
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| Re: overcards., Brian462, 29. Jul 2003 03:37 | ||
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| > Finally, if you are going to play them on the flop, then they are definitely worth > raising if you think you can limit the field behind you. I would never just call a > bet with these hands (unless heads up already), because then you are just inviting > folks behind you to draw at a better price. Raise or fold, pure and simple. This surprises me. Could you elaborate on this please? I'm still learning obviously but I had thought that by raising you would be making your own pot odds worse and the more draws would make your odds better. Since you would want to fold if one of your outs makes another drawer a straight or flush anyway(like in the AQ example), wouldn't you want other drawers contributing to the pot in case you did make yours, and they in turn want you in the hand in case they make theirs? That sounds wrong even to me but I can't find the logic explaining why so hopefully someone else here can. Thanks, Brian. | ||
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| Re: overcards., shorn, 29. Jul 2003 05:51 | ||
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| Brian- The idea here is that you need to hit one of your cards to win this pot. Ace high is not likely to win it. So, one pair will generally play well against fewer opponents. By raising, you increase your chances of winning the pot (no matter its size) because there are less people in for you to beat when you do hit. If you just call and someone with third pair and an Ace jicker also calls and an Ace comes, you still lose. Raising can potentially protect you from this by making 3rd pair fold (or making gutshot str8's fold) because the odds aren't there for them. Effectively, if is worth it to throw in one more small bet on the flop in order to significantly increase your chances of winning the 5 or 6 small bets already in there. Hope this helps. Steve | ||
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