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Server Time: 11/19/2008 3:06:35 PM PACIFIC |
 I really hate when chip leaders do this., Slate, 25. Jul 2003 10:07 | ||
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| I really hate when chip leaders do this. There is always poker etiquette you read in books and just in general. Last night (No Limit) I was low on chips really low and 2 people at different times bet my exact pot just to make me go all-in. I would never do this to anyone, if I wanted them out I would bet more or bet 25% less than what they have to make them think if its worth it. I think it is totally un-just to slide the little slider right up to the exact amount that person has. In my case they slid it both up to the exact odd dollar. In retaliation next time I play with those guys I am taking them out hard. Excuse my venting but I strongly believe in good etiquette, especially on-line where poker has lost all its human interaction, at least be cool about things. --Venting Done | ||
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| Re: I really hate when chip leaders do this., Big_Slick, 25. Jul 2003 10:16 | ||
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| That isn't rude, that's poker. If I have a chance to knock a person out, I'm taking it. If I can make a person fold a marginal hand, I'll do it. I see players who have chances to knock people out when they are down to their last few hundred dollars and don't do it. An hour later, the person is back in the game after some lucky cards. Poker is war. As long as it's legal, I'm all for it. | ||
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| Re: I really hate when chip leaders do this., jjsteele, 25. Jul 2003 18:08 | ||
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| I agree poker is war just like chess! And if you don't think I'll go for the kill your as wrong as wrong can get. | ||
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| Kick 'em When They Are Down, Big_Slick, 25. Jul 2003 18:40 | ||
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| I play a lot of free tourneys over at poker pages and see this particular scenario a lot... A player will be low on chips and some moron who has top 2 pair after the flop bets the minimum instead of taking the low stacked player out with an all-in bet. When you've only got $400-$500 in chips, most players willing to call a $200 minimum bet will usually go all-in if prompted. Inevitably, the short stacked player who is left with a few chips fights his way back from the ashes to be a contending player. I see it all the time. I want to reach through my monitor and ask these soft players what they are thinking. Around the Mid 1920's there was a beverage company that was close to going bankrupt. They were the only rival to Coke-A-Cola. The company stock was below $.05/share and seemed destined to go bankrupt. Coke had a chance to buy this company out but didn't want to spend the money. Why should they? The rival company seemed doomed and they didn't want to "throw away" their profits. Well, the doomed company ended up being bought by another business. The company did eventually go bankrupt but still managed to hold some value. It actually changed hands between 3 or 4 companies over the next 8 or 9 years. A mere 10 years later, the fifth company to take ownership managed to pull it out of bankruptcy and in 1934, the company's beverage was a hit nation wide. Do you know who the company was? Pepsi. The moral of the story? When you have the chance, take a person out. Because if you don't, you might be meeting them heads-up at the final table. They could be the only thing between you and all the money. | ||
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| Re: Kick 'em When They Are Down, gary ford, 26. Jul 2003 00:13 | ||
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| on 25. Jul 2003 18:40 Big_Slick wrote: > I play a lot of free tourneys over at poker pages and see this particular scenario a lot... A > player will be low on chips and some moron who has top 2 pair after the flop bets the minimum > instead of taking the low stacked player out with an all-in bet. > > When you've only got $400-$500 in chips, most players willing to call a $200 minimum bet will > usually go all-in if prompted. > > Inevitably, the short stacked player who is left with a few chips fights his way back from the > ashes to be a contending player. I see it all the time. I want to reach through my monitor and > ask these soft players what they are thinking. > > Around the Mid 1920's there was a beverage company that was close to going bankrupt. They were > the only rival to Coke-A-Cola. The company stock was below $.05/share and seemed destined to go > bankrupt. > > Coke had a chance to buy this company out but didn't want to spend the money. Why should they? > The rival company seemed doomed and they didn't want to "throw away" their profits. > > Well, the doomed company ended up being bought by another business. The company did eventually > go bankrupt but still managed to hold some value. It actually changed hands between 3 or 4 > companies over the next 8 or 9 years. > > A mere 10 years later, the fifth company to take ownership managed to pull it out of > bankruptcy and in 1934, the company's beverage was a hit nation wide. > > Do you know who the company was? > > Pepsi. > > The moral of the story? When you have the chance, take a person out. Because if you don't, you > might be meeting them heads-up at the final table. They could be the only thing between you and > all the money. Slick--you are 100% right, eliver the knockout punch. I keep yelling at the screen--Take him out--Take himout. One time i forgot and yelled at myself Champions go for the knockout---Gary | ||
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| Re: I really hate when chip leaders do this., donrhem, 25. Jul 2003 10:18 | ||
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| Slate, I know what your are saying and I agree. But.... This is a way for the players to get you on "tilt" and it seems to be working. Just blow it off or do it back to them. If you are worrying about this you will be not concentrating enough on your cards. Don | ||
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| Re: I really hate when chip leaders do this., ezcheese, 28. Jul 2003 20:13 | ||
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| You say it's a way for players to put him on tilt but really I don't think they'd know it was that action that put him on tilt unless it was a B&M tourney. | ||
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| Re: I really hate when chip leaders do this., MozMan, 25. Jul 2003 10:19 | ||
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| Hey Slate- It's funny, we had a discussion about that exact thing about a month ago. I had posed the question to the group asking if anyone thought that this tactic was in bad taste, as it is something I do frequently when I am a chip leader and trying to bully smaller stacks heads-up. I see it as a psychological tool, it sends a direct message that says something like, "If you want to see my cards, you have to commit all of your chips. I'm aware of how many chips you have, and it's less than me." The reason I had posed the question was that I wanted to be able to use that edge, but wondered if it made me look like an A** hole. Overwhelmingly, the response from the group at that time was favorable; not one thought it was a bad thing. Now, I see that you have a different take on it, so maybe the group would like to discuss it again... Whaddya says guys/gals? Any new thoughts on this tactic, in light of Slate's feelings? -Moz "May your chips never fall from a cow." | ||
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| Re: I really hate when chip leaders do this., Jav, 25. Jul 2003 10:55 | ||
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| I think it is absolutely a reasonable thing to do. You're playing to win the tournament. It's within the rules, and tactically a smart thing to do in certain circumstances. Ignoring it would be like not check-raising because some people don't like it. It just doesn't make sense, and normal poker players will use it. Any poker player who expects his adversaries to go easy on him just because he has less chips is in for a big disappointment. | ||
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| Re: I really hate when chip leaders do this., LJH, 25. Jul 2003 16:31 | ||
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| HEY MOZ. IF YOU BELIEVE IN ETTIQUE BOW TO THE QUEEN. LJH | ||
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| Re: I really hate when chip leaders do this., Big_Slick, 25. Jul 2003 16:55 | ||
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| LJH is like the relative that no one talks about. The bad news is, he's starting to grow on me. | ||
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| Re: I really hate when chip leaders do this., MozMan, 26. Jul 2003 16:52 | ||
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| ROFLMAO! Yeah, I've always kinda like LJH in some strange way too... :) -Moz "May your chips never fall from a cow." | ||
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| Re: I really hate when chip leaders do this., LJH, 26. Jul 2003 18:07 | ||
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| BIG S AND MOZMAN, I LOVE IT WHEN PEOPLE PICK ON ME, BECAUSE THEN I KNOW THAT THEY LOVE ME, AND I AM ABLE TO PLAY POKER EVEN WHEN ALL THESE WHINERS ARE AROUN. I WLL BE IN LAS VEGAS FROM JAN. 3 TO APRIL 3,2004, AND WOULD BE HAPPY TO SEE YOU ALL AT THE ORLEANS. LJH | ||
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| Re: I really hate when chip leaders do this., MozMan, 26. Jul 2003 18:14 | ||
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| LJH, I wasn't picking on you, I meant what I said. You're a very straightforward person, and even though you shout a lot, I respect that. I always know where I stand. If I can get to Vegas during that time, I would love to meet you. -Moz "May your chips never fall from a cow." | ||
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| Re: I really hate when chip leaders do this., LJH, 27. Jul 2003 04:11 | ||
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| MOZMAN, THANK YOU FOR YOUR HONESTY. I WRITE LARGE BECAUSE I HAVE WEAK EYES( SOME OF MY BEST FRIENDS SAY THAT APPLIED TO MY MIND ALSO) SEE YOU IN LAS VEGAS. LJJH | ||
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| Re: I really hate when chip leaders do this., Tim C, 25. Jul 2003 21:55 | ||
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| If the chip leader is a good player you should love it when he puts players all in. What I hate is a chip leader who doubles up all the short stacks with stupid plays. Give may an agressive good chipleader every time. | ||
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| Re: I really hate when chip leaders do this., mkpoker, 25. Jul 2003 10:22 | ||
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| Respectfully, I disagree. I don't see anything unethical or in any way improper about making a bet for your exact stack. This is especially true if there are still other players in the hand. For example, assume there are three players, with stacks, 1) 10,000, 2) 1,000, and 3) 2,000. Player 1could have a good reason to bet 1,000 instead of 2,000 (or 10,000). If it's just player 1 and 2, it doesn't make any difference if he bets 1,000, 2,000, 5,000 or 10,000. You're still all in! | ||
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| Re: I really hate when chip leaders do this., Kid, 25. Jul 2003 10:41 | ||
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| Hey Slate, I agree with everyone else on this one. Doyle Brunson said that no limit hold'em is about puttin a man on a decsion for all of his chips. If you can do this without getting into too much trouble, it makes you a very tough no limit player. KID | ||
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| Re: I really hate when chip leaders do this., shorn, 25. Jul 2003 10:50 | ||
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| I think you are missing potentially a strategic reason for a chip leader to do this. If he overbets your stack, psychologically you can think one of two things: (1) he has an unbeatable hand so i should fold, or (2) he is trying to steal this pot and if I have a decent hand, maybe I should call. However, if he bets exactly what he has in front of you, he is effectively eliminating any chance you have of reading his hand by the betting pattern because he has gotten you thinking about what a dick move it is to do that. Bottom line, anything that I can do to get you away from being able to read my hand better (assuming it is not cheating), I am going to take advantage of. I view this tactic the same as TJ Cloutier's in Pot Limit where he states to bet the pot whenever you bet to mask the strength/weakness of your hand. | ||
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| Re: I really hate when chip leaders do this., tpir90036, 25. Jul 2003 10:52 | ||
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| i don't get it. if i have 10,000 and you only have 1,000 what is the difference between me raising to 1,2, 5 or 10 thousand? plus, if there are still people behind you....maybe i don't want to re-raise my full 10,000 in case someone with 6,000 wakes up with a hand and tries to come along for a doubling up. being low on chips definitely sucks (especially on-line when the blinds go up so fast!) but just pick your spot and try to double up. if you pull it off he will be much more hesitant the next time. even if it's 10,000 to 1,000...you are only 3 double-ups away from a substantial lead of your own. certainly not impossible.... | ||
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| Re: I really hate when chip leaders do this., MozMan, 25. Jul 2003 11:24 | ||
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| The difference is psychological. If you bet 1,2,5 or 10 thousand, then your opponent ponders why you bet that particular amount. It gets him thinking about your hand, and you don't want that. If you bet exactly his remaining chips, then it sends a message that gets him thinking about his own vulnerability, and may cause him to make a bad decision, either now or later. THAT is what you do want. -Moz "May your chips never fall from a cow." | ||
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| Re: I really hate when chip leaders do this., tpir90036, 26. Jul 2003 12:32 | ||
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| first of all i was being facetious as i do "get it". my point is that a lot of times it's good to just bet what they have in front of them, especially if there are still people still to act behind who might try to piggyback your all-in...putting you out more than you really wanted to. if it's down to heads up though i don't see how betting exactly what they have in front of them vs. all-in has any more of a psychological impact. either way they are going to be out, and if they don't realize that then....i don't even know what :) | ||
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| Re: I really hate when chip leaders do this., noiseboy, 25. Jul 2003 10:58 | ||
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| This is what you should be doing to the small stacks when you are the big stack. Chips speak in NL, and you need to use your chips to strike fear in the heart of your opponents. If your opponents know that any time they play a pot with you, it might cost them everything, then they often become passive and weak, which you take advantage of. You should read "Super System" he talks a lot about this intimidation factor. Anyway, it's not rude, it's just the nature of the game that you will often have to make decisions for all of your chips. If I were heads up with my Mom and I thought I had the best hand, I'd raise her all-in if I thought there was a chance that she would call. If I didn't think she would call for the full stack, I'd bet the largest amount I would think she would call, ie. I would "sell the hand." Anyway, cursing at the table, whining about bad beats, criticizing other people's play, angle shooting, throwing cards at the dealer in live games, these things are rude, not playing the game aggressively like it should be played. Just my .$02. | ||
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| Re: I really hate when chip leaders do this., McMonkey, 25. Jul 2003 11:12 | ||
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| I have a real good example of why you want to do this. I was in a 10 person SnG last night. It's down to 6 people. 2 players are involved in a hand and the bigger stack ended up betting 10 less than the other players total. The bigger stack won leaving this poor guy with only 10 chips (not even enough to cover a small blind). BUT, that player went all-in a few times, caught some good cards and wound up placing 3rd and in the money, while the other guy, I believe, placed 4th. If you're playing poker to win money there's no room to be nice like that. If you're playing poker for the fun of it and don't care about winning money, then let me know where you're playing so I can join you ;-) | ||
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| Re: I really hate when chip leaders do this., pt_Gatsby, 25. Jul 2003 11:34 | ||
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| I must admit, I play far better shorthand because of what you are saying. I'm pretty merciless when it comes to dismantling shortstacked players, and my statistics show it. Every game in which I entered top 3 (6 ppl sit n go) as chip leader, I won (though this is only based on roughly 25 sitngos now). The strategy you mention has four major merits, most of which have already been mentioned. 1) Game theory states that in order for you to be put into a situation where your loss potential (absolute in this case) is higher than mine, I have an advantage. The level of betting matching your worst case scenario is therefore the best possible betting advantage I have. 2) It turns into a win-win situation. When you are shortstacked, a blind costs you a huge chunk. It makes you even weaker to the large stack. If you take the risk and go all in, then you have committed yourself to the disadvantage in 1), if you do not, you have commited to the disadvantage here in 2) (weakening your position). 3) It states your intent to other opponents. Almost ALL opponents will back off a targeted attack, thus giving you that added advantage. This becomes increasingly true the less they have invested, and less true the less competitive the tournament has been. Simply put, no one wants to challenge large stacks, especially not one that targets. The closer to the money they are, the less likely they are to challenge you at all. 4) It gives alpha-pokerplayer status. It is a direct sign of aggression by the most powerful player there. It causes fear, anger and what not, and as this thread shows, it works. Anytime you start feeling directed emotion at an opponent, he can control you. Combine that with his ability to dominate the table chip wise, clear advantage goes to him. I don't hesitate to use this tatic, but I prefer it when my hand is only marginally decent. I tend to bet half stacks when my hand is powerful: this gives him a huge dilema in that he can match and essentially risk half, or throw it in on a gamble. I find it works better when I am dealt a premium hand, as they still have a chance to back down and thus are more likely to stay in. | ||
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| Re: I really hate (It was ME !! ), Risky Business, 25. Jul 2003 12:47 | ||
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| I did this at Party last night. If it was you, I'll explain my play. In terms of people in the hand, I was 2nd to act, "you" had bet a small amount, and the person behind me was the chip leader. I wanted you in for it all, so I bet 325 and you had 320. I had a pair of 9's I believe, but didn't want to pay the chip leader any more if he came over the top and forced me to fold. He did, and I did. If it wasn't you, great, but my intent was not malicious. | ||
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| Re: I really hate (It was ME !! ), pt_Gatsby, 25. Jul 2003 12:48 | ||
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| :) Don't play at party, only at Poker stars and UB. I probably changed perspective in my original post... Disjointed, since I'm working at the same time :) | ||
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| You need to find a new past time., Paintballgirl, 25. Jul 2003 12:04 | ||
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| If this bothers you that much there are far more gentlemanly endeavors. Like ping pong. Or polo. Or tiddly winks. Poker is about pushing people around within a given set of rules. It's why a lot of us play. I would really be annoyed if people apologized for drawing out on me all the time or if I had to feel bad for check raising. "I'm sorry I played that 2-3 offsuit with the intention of bluffing". I'm sorry you feel like this Slate, but this is the nature of the beast if you choose to play poker. | ||
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| Re: You need to find a new past time., Big_Slick, 25. Jul 2003 12:10 | ||
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| PaintBallGirl laying down some smack!!! | ||
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| Re: You need to find a new past time., Paintballgirl, 25. Jul 2003 13:14 | ||
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| Hey I played tournament paintball for three years and have dealt with more than my share of whiners. "You overshot me!" "If the wind didn't change direction, you'd be out by now." "If I had a better gun, you'd be gone." "You're too small to hit." "I'm too big to fit in that bunker." "That was a lucky shot." I'm not talking smack. I'm talking TRUTH. If you can't take the heat, stop playing with fire. | ||
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| Re: You need to find a new past time., Risky Business, 25. Jul 2003 13:27 | ||
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| I'm taking 'paintballgirl' in the UPF arm wrestling contest at next years WSOP. | ||
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| Re: You need to find a new past time., LJH, 25. Jul 2003 16:35 | ||
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| PAINTBALLGIRL, I AM WITH YOU. WE ARE NOT PLAYING TIDDLY WINKS WE ARE PLAYIN POKER TO WIN.LJH | ||
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| Re: You need to find a new past time., stdioh, 25. Jul 2003 14:31 | ||
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| You obviously haven't played in my tiddly winks league :) | ||
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| Re: You need to find a new past time., Jav, 25. Jul 2003 15:41 | ||
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| lol, I bet it's rough! | ||
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| Re: You need to find a new past time., LJH, 25. Jul 2003 16:37 | ||
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| STDIOH., ARE YOU KIDDING.I PLAYED IN THE MAJOR LEAGUES IN MY KINDERGARTEN AND THE GIRLS TOOK US APART THEN TOO.LJH | ||
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| Re: You need to find a new past time., gary ford, 26. Jul 2003 00:17 | ||
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| on 25. Jul 2003 12:04 Paintballgirl wrote: > If this bothers you that much there are far more gentlemanly endeavors. Like ping > pong. Or polo. Or tiddly winks. Poker is about pushing people around within a > given set of rules. It's why a lot of us play. I would really be annoyed if people > apologized for drawing out on me all the time or if I had to feel bad for check > raising. "I'm sorry I played that 2-3 offsuit with the intention of bluffing". I'm > sorry you feel like this Slate, but this is the nature of the beast if you choose to > play poker. Alyssa---there's always "Hunting for Bambi", | ||
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| Re: You need to find a new past time., greg petriv, 26. Jul 2003 05:16 | ||
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| The poker table is not the place to show or affirm your "like" for someone....give them $$ after the game ...buy them a beer ...dinner...a house...whatever...the nature of the game is aggression and deception ...not showdown.....I have been ostracized as "one of those" many many times for not letting up....and betting hard... | ||
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| Re: I really hate when chip leaders do this., stdioh, 25. Jul 2003 14:29 | ||
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| Pshaw. I do that all the time. Of course I'll bet your exact total to get you all in. For instance, lets say that 5 places pay off and there are 6 of us. I have T5000 and Joe has T5000 and you have T515 and the blinds are 100-200. You limp in, Joe is in the big and I'm in the small. Now I make it 515 because I think my hand is better than yours. Joe also comes in. Now why didn't I just shove in T1000? Maybe my hand is not good enough for that and I'm afraid Joe will raise me and I'll have to release. Maybe my hand is AA and I want to tempt Joe to raise me. Nonetheless, unless Joe has really good cards, the correct thing for him to do there is to just call because now if either of us beats you, you are out and we both get paid. Yes, it is called putting you to a decision. Play for everything you've got or get out of my hand. It is strategy at its most basic form. If you think that it is imoral, wise up. That's like those players who think that checkraising is imoral. Angle shooting is imoral, but angle shooting is always a case of violating the rules and trying to make it look like you aren't violating the rules...like saying, "I was asking if he checked, I wasn't really saying check" - angel. Betting any amount at all - perfectly fine. | ||
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| Re: I really hate when chip leaders do this., Schuster, 25. Jul 2003 23:02 | ||
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| I do believe that is the first "Pshaw" I've witnessed here on UPF. lol! | ||
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| Re: I really hate when chip leaders do this., Big_Slick, 26. Jul 2003 09:35 | ||
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| I do that all the time. Of course I'll bet your exact total to get you all in. I've been known to bet an amount $5 less than what an opponent has. Wanna piss someone off, get them on tilt or make them play with too much emotion? Try that move. If they happen to make a comment, tell them the $5 is for cab fare. | ||
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| Re: I really hate when chip leaders do this., stdioh, 29. Jul 2003 12:26 | ||
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| Ooooooooh. I like that. The $5 is for cab fare so that you can get out of my sight. A friend of mine was playing in Calgary and tearing apart the table so badly, one player offered to pay his cab fare if he would leave. | ||
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| Re: I really hate when chip leaders do this., greg, 25. Jul 2003 15:06 | ||
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| i know the point has already been made but if something as small as chip leaders pushing you around in a tourney angers you, then maybe poker isn't the game for you. those who push you around with their chips have earned that right by becoming the table captains. the only thing you can do is hope for some decent cards to strike back with. keep your concentration in tourneys and good luck! | ||
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| Re: I really hate when chip leaders do this., LJH, 25. Jul 2003 16:28 | ||
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| SLATE,, TELL IT TO MISS MANNERS. LJH | ||
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