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Server Time: 2/13/2012 3:03:59 PM PACIFIC |
 Hand analysis and Aggressive table thoughts, beigs, 25. Jul 2003 09:00 | ||
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| Here's a hand I played this morning that I was disappointed by the result but I think I made the right play. I'm dealt ATo in 3 before the button. Four people see flop (including me). Flop comes A 8 4. 2 hearts. EP player bets, MP raises, I fold. A 7 comes on the turn. A J on the river. MP raiser wins with an A6o. EP bet out with nothing. He had TJ in the hole and then was raised. Stayed in, got a jack on the river only to lose to the MP raisers pair of Aces. Now... this was a little frustrating because I would have won. But the problem I had was that this was an extremely aggressive table. The MP raiser had been raising a lot of hands. I figured his raise meant that he had an Ace but I couldn't tell if he had a better kicker. I would have put the EP guy who bet out on the flop on an ace or a somewhat high pair (tens or jacks.) But the raise made me fold. How does one play this aggressive tables? I've been sitting and waiting for premium hands (unless I can limp in) but I'm not winning very much when I do win. I've gotten to the point where I don't lose very much, but it's so expensive to stay in a hand that I'm folding a lot of would be winners. Any thoughts? | ||
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| Re: Hand analysis and Aggressive table thoughts, Blake, 25. Jul 2003 09:49 | ||
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| Find an easier game!It sounds like your opponents are solid players.I would just find a softer game or pack it up until most of the aggressive opponents in that game left. Take Care | ||
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| Re: Hand analysis and Aggressive table thoughts, Snorbolus, 25. Jul 2003 10:44 | ||
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| Don't play ATo if you aren't going to like it when you flop an ace. If there are players who frequently pound the pot regardless of what they have, decide what holding you would be comfortable playing against that kind of action, then only play starting hands that are likely to flop something you will want to play. Also, don't exclusively focus on the very aggressive players in a hand. Consider who else is in and ask yourself what those players have been staying with against the aggressive competition. Can you beat that too? Remember that you will have to beat all of the other players in the pot, not just the maniacs. The varience in really aggresive games can be huge. If you are uncomfortable with big swings then find a different game. It took me a little while to realize that you can just get up from a table that you don't like much and put your name back on the list. Snorbolus on 25. Jul 2003 09:00 beigs wrote: > > Here's a hand I played this morning that I was disappointed by the result but I > think I made the right play. > > I'm dealt ATo in 3 before the button. Four people see flop (including me). > Flop comes A 8 4. 2 hearts. EP player bets, MP raises, I fold. A 7 comes on > the turn. A J on the river. MP raiser wins with an A6o. EP bet out with > nothing. He had TJ in the hole and then was raised. Stayed in, got a jack on > the river only to lose to the MP raisers pair of Aces. > > Now... this was a little frustrating because I would have won. But the problem > I had was that this was an extremely aggressive table. The MP raiser had been > raising a lot of hands. I figured his raise meant that he had an Ace but I > couldn't tell if he had a better kicker. I would have put the EP guy who bet > out on the flop on an ace or a somewhat high pair (tens or jacks.) But the > raise made me fold. > > How does one play this aggressive tables? I've been sitting and waiting for > premium hands (unless I can limp in) but I'm not winning very much when I do > win. I've gotten to the point where I don't lose very much, but it's so > expensive to stay in a hand that I'm folding a lot of would be winners. > > Any thoughts? | ||
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| Re: Hand analysis and Aggressive table thoughts, Kid, 25. Jul 2003 10:48 | ||
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| Hey beigs, This sounds similar to some low limit tables I was playing on at UB yesterday. I think it's a tough situation to call 2 cold bets with top pair okay kicker. If I was in your shoes I probably would have folded. Even though your hand was good, a lot of times when the maniacs raise, it won't be. In games that are aggressive, I tend to tighten up preflop, and only play hands that can take a lot of heat on the flop. I know it's tough to fold the best hand, but I think you just have to do it sometimes, otherwise you'll end up paying off because you'll be thinking, "I've seen A6 raised like this before." KID | ||
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| Re: Hand analysis and Aggressive table thoughts, Banning, 25. Jul 2003 14:49 | ||
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| Had I had an ace I would have raised the initial bettor as well. Especially if I knew he was a maniac. That play is even recommended by sklansky for dealing with a player who is on a steal (usually for against a late postion bet) but against a really aggresive player it should work as well. It is designed to fold overcards but in this situation folded you. I would say that MP player played a very solid isolation play to get heads up with the EP maniac. That play wasn't out of order at all. I think it was a good play. Of course I ain't no pro, just my thoughts. | ||
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| Re: Hand analysis and Aggressive table thoughts, Snorbolus, 25. Jul 2003 15:17 | ||
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| Banning, I don't think that you are right about the MP player making a good play. I think that he played the hand shockingly. For a start he played A6o. Raising his top pair crappy kicker on the flop was better than just calling with it but still worse than folding, and much much worse than not playing it at all, IMHO. There is no reason to believe that the EP player was on a steal. Also, with a pair of aces you are not worred about overcards. An ace with a better kicker is however a very real concern, but a low limit player with that holding is much more likely to call a raise than one with just an overcard or two. Snorbolus on 25. Jul 2003 14:49 Banning wrote: > Had I had an ace I would have raised the initial bettor as well. Especially if I > knew he was a maniac. That play is even recommended by sklansky for dealing with a > player who is on a steal (usually for against a late postion bet) but against a > really aggresive player it should work as well. It is designed to fold overcards but > in this situation folded you. I would say that MP player played a very solid > isolation play to get heads up with the EP maniac. That play wasn't out of order at > all. I think it was a good play. Of course I ain't no pro, just my thoughts. | ||
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| Re: Hand analysis and Aggressive table thoughts, Banning, 25. Jul 2003 16:03 | ||
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| you know what, shortly after I wrote my response I realized that it wasn't short handed play. I for some reason thought that he was playing against 4 people total, not that 4 people had seen the flop. I had just finished reading S&M's section on short handed play where they mention that the first bettor is usually on a steal so you need to be willing to call more often, so my mindset was on that. I was wrong. For the sake of conversation/argument though: The player made a mistake to even be playing his A6, but alot of low limit players play any ace, and as such if i was in the hand with an ace and a 6 I would raise the bettor to fold other stronger kickers, and/or define my hand. If the original bettor bets out again then it would be a fold. The MP position player did make a mistake to even play that hand but other than that he did do a good job. The bet to fold overcards, that was an analogy, of course there are no overcards but there are overkickers, and his raise got somebody to fold an overkicker. So when I was referring to the idea of raising to fold overcards, I wanted to show how the play in that situation could be used to bluff a higher kicker out of the pot. Of course the player was probably just a loose aggresive player who was playing his ace for all it was worth, so I shouldn't give him too much credit. Anyhow, I was incorrect in my original poste in saying he made a good play. The best play was a fold. However, his post flop play appeared to have worked quite well this time. I might like to also add, that if the original poster had already known that the table was very loose and aggresive, then he should have been aware and as such should have tightened up his starting hand requirement accordingly and should have been ready for this sort of play. on 25. Jul 2003 15:17 Snorbolus wrote: > Banning, > > I don't think that you are right about the MP player making a good play. I think that he > played the hand shockingly. For a start he played A6o. Raising his top pair crappy kicker > on the flop was better than just calling with it but still worse than folding, and much > much worse than not playing it at all, IMHO. There is no reason to believe that the EP > player was on a steal. Also, with a pair of aces you are not worred about overcards. An > ace with a better kicker is however a very real concern, but a low limit player with that > holding is much more likely to call a raise than one with just an overcard or two. > > Snorbolus > > on 25. Jul 2003 14:49 Banning wrote: > > Had I had an ace I would have raised the initial bettor as well. Especially if I > > knew he was a maniac. That play is even recommended by sklansky for dealing with a > > player who is on a steal (usually for against a late postion bet) but against a > > really aggresive player it should work as well. It is designed to fold overcards but > > > in this situation folded you. I would say that MP player played a very solid > > isolation play to get heads up with the EP maniac. That play wasn't out of order at > > all. I think it was a good play. Of course I ain't no pro, just my thoughts. | ||
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| Re: Hand analysis and Aggressive table thoughts, beigs, 25. Jul 2003 16:18 | ||
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| Thanks for the tips all. I shouldn't have played the ace if I wasn't going to call with it. I started strong and then turned into a wuss. But 2 bets seemed like a lot to cold call. I would have figured him for two pair on the flop | ||
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| Re: Hand analysis and Aggressive table thoughts, Snorbolus, 25. Jul 2003 16:34 | ||
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| Please do not misunderstand my posts in this thread. I do not think that your fold was wussy. Two bets are a lot to cold call with just top pair OKish kicker. That is why that, if you are expecting lots of action on most flops you need to be very selective about what hands you start with. If you do decide to play something like ATo against very aggressive opposition be sure that you know exactly what you intend to do if they come at you later in the hand; also why you think it will be safe to do that (whatever it is). Snorbolus on 25. Jul 2003 16:18 beigs wrote: > > Thanks for the tips all. I shouldn't have played the ace if I wasn't going to call with it. I > started strong and then turned into a wuss. But 2 bets seemed like a lot to cold call. I would > have figured him for two pair on the flop | ||
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| Re: Hand analysis and Aggressive table thoughts, Andrew Wells, 25. Jul 2003 18:54 | ||
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| You could also try making it three bets hoping to get checked to on the turn. Then you can check as well if a blank falls on the turn and expect to get bet into on the river by a worse hand often enough to make an automatic call here. Making it three bets on the flop with aces and a dubious kicker does tend to get rid of the early position player(s) that bet the flop with their pocket pair (ie, the type of hands that if given a free card will checkraise the river if they spike a set). This is similar to the somewhat advanced play of inducing bluffs, but is a reasonable alternative strategy since you can not be beaten by an overcard with aces. | ||
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| Re: Hand analysis and Aggressive table thoughts, Swagman, 25. Jul 2003 19:15 | ||
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| Short handed games vs. full table play is a totally different ballgame. I no longer find the grind of a full table apealing. Waiting for those primium hands to come and finding out no one wants to play with you, or working very hard at seeing a slight profit, just to lose it when your set of kings is beaten by that set of aces on the river. I only play them now if I want to relax, or for purposes of deception. Just one final word: be careful playing against a person that acts horribly aggressive, like that perverbial maniac, in a full handed table and playing against that person in a short handed table. He may have you exactly where he intended you to be. | ||
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| Re: Hand analysis and Aggressive table thoughts, PairTheBoard, 25. Jul 2003 23:43 | ||
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| I think Snorboius made a great point about paying attention to how the other players play against the maniac. I'm afraid my record at tables with maniacs has been less than outstanding myself. I keep trying though because I'm convinced their play provides a great opportunity for profit if I just learn to properly adjust to it. The thing about is that one maniac at the table loosens the whole table up. Watch how often when the maniac leaves, the table action dries up and all of a sudden you find yourself at a tight table. It's also easy to get to thinking that several of the players at the table are maniacs when in fact they are just trying to cope with the one maniac. I'm finding it's a terrible mistake to stereotype the wrong players as maniacs. They may make some outrageous plays agaisnt the maniac but against you they will be holding the nuts. It's definitely a more difficult game to beat imo. Sklansky points this out when he advises agaisnt playing at tables with large pots due to a lot of raising and reraising. However my ambition remains to become the kind of Class Player that will tear that table apart in the long run. | ||
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