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Server Time: 10/15/2008 3:39:21 PM PACIFIC |
 no limits to my complaining ;), tpir90036, 24. Jul 2003 22:32 | ||
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| i am part of a weekly NLHE game with a $20 buy-in with rebuys and i am to the point where i am afraid to get aggressive with anything except a set or more due to people limping in with random garbage and making two pair on me what seems like every time. when i have top pair and they have jack sh*t why can't i get them to fold?!? should i be limping in with garbage as well or should i be curbing my aggression downwards? it seems like these people are trying to flop two pair every time. if that is the case you might as well just call with everything. perhaps a little more pre-flop aggression could get these loose limpers out...but now i am not going to get the action that i need to show a positive EV for having to raise them and limp all the time. people consistently calling with 84o and 3 overcards on the board and making two pair on the river makes me want to not play poker anymore. someone please help me understand no-limit hold 'em vs. fish.... | ||
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| Re: no limits to my complaining ;), Big_Slick, 25. Jul 2003 05:36 | ||
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| It's simple.. you need to bet enough where it's not in their best interest monitarily to continue. If these players want to continue after the flop with 8-3 for $5 or $10, then give me your address and lets play! They will soon realize that the evening will be over quickly if they call you for large amounts and you end up having the goods. | ||
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| here is an example that i don't know how to deal with, tpir90036, 25. Jul 2003 08:10 | ||
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| my biggest problem is that these nut-zos play overcards with nothing else as strongly as you or i would play top pair. they think overcards are *very* valuable and will go all the way to the river with them. example: i have QJ in LP and the flop comes J-10-x. they would play *any* queen, king or ace strong for value. sadly the only time i got up the guts to call someone in a situation like this i had an ace spiked on me. granted this is not a reason to not call them the next time. but i have always heard that you should do more limping if everyone else is but it hasn't been helping me a darn bit. should i possibly be raising more with marginal hands to get more limpers out? example: say i had KTo in MP with 3 loose/poor players behind me limping in. should i limp in as well or raise to keep the blinds from getting a free peak? i know that KTo is a trap hand but if i can get in for one bet and know how to get away from it i don't think i should be folding it..... | ||
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| Re: here is an example that i don't know how to deal with, Big_Slick, 25. Jul 2003 08:19 | ||
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| I wouldn't worry so much about raising marginal hands before the flop. When you start doing that, you're apt to get spiked with A-A or K-K. I would simply wait until you know you have the lead in a hand and make the other players pay dearly to draw out on you. | ||
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| Re: here is an example that i don't know how to deal with, Slate, 25. Jul 2003 08:24 | ||
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| This is a classic example of knowing your opponents and how they have played the last hands. Your QJ with a 10,J,x flop. You have top pair with a half decent kicker. You have to watch out for a straight forming or some who calls with KJ or AJ. But it seems like it was unlikely in that case. I would call since your in late pos or make a small bet. Then if the turn is in your favor start betting. Again its all about reading the players and sometimes placing a bet will give you valuable information about them. | ||
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| Re: here is an example that i don't know how to deal with, tpir90036, 25. Jul 2003 08:34 | ||
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| thanks for the responses guys!! i guess that is part of my problem...i do know them and i know that with a flop of J-T-x they would play 10-5o just as strongly as JJ. they aren't *trying* to bluff but in a lot of ways they are forcing me out of the pot since i am afraid that if i call them down they are going to show me two pair, 10's and 5's (which has happened on numerous occasions). | ||
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| Re: here is an example that i don't know how to deal with, shorn, 25. Jul 2003 08:34 | ||
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| The problem with this hand and the specific flop you mention is that a Q does you no good. It now completes a str8 and you have to potentially hit again to win. I think a better strategy in MP with hands like this and limpers in front and likely behind is to fold and wait for a better hand or position to play. | ||
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| Re: here is an example that i don't know how to deal with, tpir90036, 25. Jul 2003 08:37 | ||
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| agreed. i am just sick of watching people play KTo under the gun and have it work out for them time and time again. it makes me feel like i should be limping with this as well even though i know it is not a good NLHE hand (they of course think any two cards ten and above are playable from anywhere.) | ||
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| Re: no limits to my complaining ;), noiseboy, 25. Jul 2003 09:01 | ||
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| Just make larger bets when you want to get rid of them. When you flop a set and a flush draw is possible, go all-in. If they are stupid enough to call, more power to them, in the long run you get all their money. Before the flop, make big raises with your big pairs and big slick. Just make them pay, you might be running bad right now, but in the long run you'll get the money. One question, are you allowed to rebuy back in when you go broke? If so, bring $100 or $200 dollars or so and use a lot of all-in moves whenever you are fairly certain you have the best hand. Then just rebuy if they suck you out, and go all-in again in another spot when you are the favorite. They will either figure out that calling your big bets is a bad idea, or they will go broke due to poker Darwinism. | ||
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| Re: no limits to my complaining ;), noiseboy, 25. Jul 2003 09:07 | ||
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| One more thing, if they are doing lot's of limping, I would suggest you limp right along all your lower and middle pairs, you can make some real money when someone flops their lucky two pair with garbage when you have a set. One last thing, it sounds like you are playing against calling stations, so DO NOT BLUFF. You might bluff just a little when the situation is just right, for example if you are heads-up with one player in the game who actually lays down a hand once in a while. Anyway, good luck! | ||
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| Re: no limits to my complaining ;), tpir90036, 25. Jul 2003 09:20 | ||
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| yes you can rebuy if you bust out. i agree totally with limping with small pairs. the hands i have the most problems deciding whether to limp with are the trap/garbage hands like KJo and KTo. the crappy thing is that they would actually be profitable in my game because people will play *any* king and even a jack can out kick them most time. obviously i wouldn't limp with them every time but i am thinking of adding them to my playable list in LP in an unraised pot (maybe they should already be there). on the other hand if i were in a tourney i would fold them without a second thought. bottom line is that i am bad at playing marginal hands in NLHE. | ||
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| Re: no limits to my complaining ;), noiseboy, 25. Jul 2003 10:06 | ||
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| I have a very simple solution for you. Just don't play the trap hands, even if they are somewhat better than some of the trash hands your opponents are playing, there is a danger that you will trap yourself. Just play all pairs, AK AQ, any suited A if you can get in cheap. You can play KQ in late position if there's no raise. Hellmuth talks about a strategy like this in his book, he states that in NL he rates KQ below a pair of 22's! After having some rather bad experiences with KQ, I have to say that I agree, although I had to learn the hard way. | ||
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| Re: no limits to my complaining ;), tpir90036, 25. Jul 2003 10:09 | ||
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| very good points. does hellmuth say anything about playing connectors in late position if you can get in cheap? there seems to be a lot of differing opinions when it comes to hands like JT, T9 in NL. | ||
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| Re: no limits to my complaining ;), noiseboy, 25. Jul 2003 11:09 | ||
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| Phil doesn't really recommend playing the small suited connectors until you reach the advanced play level. I would say that against these opponents, you probably shouldn't play them as part of their profitability comes from being able to read your opponents. Let's say you are up against good players, the pot is raised and called in two places and all three have deep money. You are on the button with 76s, you can be pretty sure that you are the only one with those cards, so if you flop hard to it, you know you'll get paid off by the opponents who likely have AK, AQ or big to medium pairs. Anyway, if you don't flop to it hard, you have to have the discipline to dump it. Against players who will play anything, I don't think it's really necessary to play the small connectors. You can, but these players are hard to read, so you might end up flopping two pair, thinking you have the best hand, and someone ends up beating you with some weird str8 that you didn't really expect. "You called a raise with what????" Anyway, against bad players, you don't need to fool anyone with tricky play, just be patient and show down the best hand. | ||
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| Re: no limits to my complaining ;), noiseboy, 25. Jul 2003 11:11 | ||
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| I should also mention that there is a wide divergence of opinion on how to play small suited connectors. In Super System, Brunson claims that he will play them from ANY position, if the money is deep and he thinks he can break someone if he hits. Personally, I don't like them in Early Position, I had a bad experience at the UPF tournament recently violating this rule I have about them in EP! ;) | ||
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| courtesy of Mike812 via e-mail, tpir90036, 25. Jul 2003 11:46 | ||
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| You also have to realize that your opponents have the same chance of getting cards as you. Just because they are calling stations does not mean they call with crap cards all the time. They can have A-K, A-A, K-K, and Q-Q just like you can. This makes it even tougher when they beat you with that hand because you feel they got lucky. I play in a weekly NLHE game with a bunch of college kids at my school. I have the mindset that I am probably one of the best players at the table, but I try not to get that confused with anything else. I do not want to get into the mindset that my opponents always play garbage hands because thats how they always play. Here are some tips I have developed to beat games like this (I have only had one losing session during the whole summer break) 1) At the start of the game, I try to win as many small pots as possible. I am real aggressive just to let these people know that I am here to play and that I run the table. Lets say I bought in for $20, and I have won $5-$10 in the first 15 minutes. Now, with that $10-$5, I look at that as free money. Then, I resort to playing semi-tight until I get a monster hand. Pre-Flop, I will raise (depending on the situation) you have to make sure it is a respectable raise. If I hit the flop, I will throw in the rest of the free moneySometimes your opponent will fold, sometimes he will call. If the turn is a garbage card, or a card that I think helps my hand, I usually go all-in (I make sure I have the nuts, or close to it. Even better if I have top pair, and drawing for a straight or flush at the same time). You can also go all-in on the river (all depends on the situation). No average poker player will call your all-in unless he has a decent hand. And if these guys are calling stations they will call you and hopefully pay you off nicely. If they fold, you just won yourself a decent sized pot. 2) Look at how all your friends bet. If they always call then you have to assume that they have marginal hands. BUT, if they raise you have to beware of those b/c they have a monster hand 99% of the time. If they check-raise you, they have a monster hand. One trait with calling stations is that they love to slow-play (Just one of my observations). 3) It is almost impossible to bluff these type of players. If you do intend to bluff, you can NOT bluff with small bets. They will always call small bets. On the other hand, if you bet high: they are less likely to call UNLESS they have a monster hand. Then you see the next card, and fold if you want to. Never bluff someone that calls your bet or re-raises it. 4) If one of the players bust me (which has a good chance since they have the same probability of receiving cards) Dont look at it is a bad things, dont go on tilt, dont think hes lucky. Just buy-in again, and work your chip stack back up. The mistakes your opponents make is how you make your money. I love betting with their money. If I lose a pot, I usually still have my own money that I bought in with. And if Im in a pot where I have the nuts, I have no problem going all-in with my money. And 99% of the time, they will call since they have invested so much money into the table. Also, once you make aggressive moves and win some pots. Players at the table begin to fear you. These are just some strategies I use that have worked for me. I like to mix up my play with a little bit of aggressiveness/tightness. Let me know if this helps you out. Mike | ||
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| Re: courtesy of Mike812 via e-mail, Mike812, 25. Jul 2003 11:54 | ||
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| Thanks tpir Just to let you know, I have combined strategies from both Super System and Hellmuths book to beat my weekly game Mike | ||
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