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Server Time: 8/21/2008 1:08:37 PM PACIFIC |
 Please Give Comments/Criticism of NL Tourney Hands, NOWAY, 24. Jul 2003 20:55 | ||
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| I am hoping some of you may help with some advice on the following 2 hands that I encountered last night in a NL poker tourney. Allow me to give the tourney setup and what details I can remember pertaining to each hand: NL HoldEm Tourney 35 dollar buyin with unlimited rebuys for the first 60 minutes. Original Buy In gets you 600 tourney chips. Rebuys within first 60 minutes cost 30 dollars and get you 500 chips. Heres the thing though, after 60 minutes there is an "Add-On" Where you may either purchase 1500 chips for 30 dollars, or 3000 chips for 60 dollars. The tourney starts with 50-100 blinds, doubles to 100-200, and the last 20 minutes before the "add-on break" the blinds go to 200-400. So as you can see...you have to make some moves early as to not get anted off to death. This was my first time to participate in this tourney "live by the way not online", and the tourney started with 55 players seated 11 to a table at 5 tables. I was fortunate enough to start at a table with 4 big time fish, one guy making like 8 rebuys in the first 30 minutes. I got lucky and picked up AA on the button and tripled up as both players called all their chips off with A7os, and A6os respectively. Anyway one youngster, like myself, got really fortunate and won a monster pot the very last hand before the "addon break". This kid was the commanding chip leader at my table but had won most of them with very "lucky" draws in my opinion. Calling all in bets with A9os, A8os etc, and always spiking an ace against a pair. So when the addon break came, I was in pretty good position, I hadn't had to rebuy at all and I had approximately 2800 in chips. A player I respect very much told me at the break that I have to add on for the full 60 bucks and get the 3000 to bring my total to 5800, which I did as did almost everyone else in the tourney. Which really makes the tourney a 95 dollar entry because after the addon break the blinds start at 300-600, so you can see how manipulating the quick blind raise structure eliminates the first hour of play. Any way I get moved to another table with a much more solid table and build my stack up to about 15000 in chips. By the time I get picked up and moved to the final 2 tables I take a quick inventory of the stacks at both tables and I feel I am close to second place if not in second alone. I start the final 2 tables with about 22000 in chips. I was cruising, running good and had a good read on the players that I had been seated with. Heres where things go sour: The first hand at this table, the blinds are now at 1000-2000, I pick up 99 in mp, I make a 6000 dollar open raise, and pick up the 3000 in blinds. Next hand it is folded to me 3 off button, I pick up AQ, Both blinds are real short stacked so I am willing to let one of them gamble with me if they want to call a small raise. I raise 4000. Player in Cutoff position, who was the yound kid who had been such a large chip leader at my original table, but that played weak hands way too strong, raises me 2000. Both blinds give it up. Now this kid is probably still the chip leader, but he only has me covered by 4-5 thousand. I really feel I got him but I don't want to totally gamble on a coin flip if he has a small pair, so I just call. Flop comes 89T rainbow, I bet out 4000 thousand. He studies for about 30 seconds and calls. At this point I feel I need to catch, but still not sure. Turn is Q. YEPPEE I know he doesn't have a jack, No way he is coming over the top of me preflop with AJ, JJ and he would have set me all in on flop, and KJ TJ, or QJ wouldn't have warranted a preflop reraise, plus he didn't have the patience to slow play a flopped nut str8. I bet out 8000, now that I know the result I wish I would have went all in right here, but 8000 was a substantial bet considering the size of out stacks. He calls almost immediately, and the dealer brings a Jack on the river. Giving both of us a str8 if we play the board. I now have to check fearing he had something with a King in his hand. He checks and turns over A9os. How does he make that call with A9os after the queen hits? So we split up the 3000 in blinds and we are back to square one. I would have been commanding chip leader if he doesn't spike a 9 for trips or a J for a split. UGGH Plus the payouts had just been announced: 1. 2300 2. 1600 3. 1000 4. 700 5. 500 6. 380 7. Free entry into next weeks tourney Not bad for a 95 dollar investment. Heres where I lost the tourney: Very next hand, I pick up Ad6d in lp. I limp for some reason, which if I would have raised I may have ended up in the money as you will soon see. All fold and BB who I hadn't played with, but was probably 3rd in chip position checks. This guy had some playing experience, you could tell by his "Party Poker" hat and his chip shuffling abilities. Flop comes 346 rainbow. BB leads out with 4000. I come back with a 12000 dollar raise as I put this guy on A4, and I knew I had him nutted to a 4. He stacks and unstacks his chips about 5 times, making me feel very confident in my hand, and finally he calls. I wish had had put him all in here as I realized after I made the 12000 raise it left him with about 3000 left over. Turn is another 4, and he quickly pops his last 3000 in pot, I disgustedly call his last 3 grand, simply because I would hate to fold to a desperation bluff and I had way to much committed. He turns over 24os and when the river doesn't bring my 6 he becomes chip leader. Next hand I pick up pocket 66s and go all in, get called by kid who sucked out the str8 on board. He has AJ and spikes A on flop. 4 at that table, out of tourney. Do I suck? I know if I raise preflop with the Ad6d the real damaging hand never develops as the 24os in BB would have had to let it go, but I had been picking up hands and raising so aggressively the first 2 hands that I though I would change gears and try and see a cheap flop and bust somebody if a6 hits against an A-Face, or maybe flop a big flush draw. Was I unlucky here? What would you guys have done different? Thanks in advance, CD | ||
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| Re: Please Give Comments/Criticism of NL Tourney Hands, Andrew Wells, 24. Jul 2003 21:09 | ||
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| Possibly you got a little frustrated after the split with your AQ. You said that hand was 3 off the button, and the next hand was A6. Even if this was a ten handed table you are not in late position or even middle position. You have too good a stack to be fooling around on A6s with four players and the blinds yet to act. Okay so you played it, but how can you just simply put your opponent on that specific a hand - particularly the big blind. He could have anything from a made straight, set, two pair, one pair and a gut shot, a medium pocket pair, or even just a move. The 4000 bet doesn't define his hand. I think you put him on a hand you could beat to justify continuing in the pot. Such a small top pair against the big blind with a stack that can hurt you is trouble waiting to happen, you had another chance to get away from it on the flop. | ||
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| Re: Please Give Comments/Criticism of NL Tourney Hands, NOWAY, 24. Jul 2003 21:27 | ||
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| So your saying just don't play that hand at all in the first place, or If I do, raise to see where I stand? | ||
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| Re: Please Give Comments/Criticism of NL Tourney Hands, chasepoker, 25. Jul 2003 05:48 | ||
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| I think i might have played the A6s but played it with a raise ( say 2.5x the BB ) and then if you are called or reraised release the hand. When it gets to this stage the blinds are large enough to steal so you may as well try and win it there. Also if the people you are probably going up against have a lot less chips than you then these ' speculative ' hands dont have so much value as if you hit what you are looking to hit ( 2 pair / flush ) you will not get paid off to the same extent as you would if it is a multi way pot / you are up against people with big stacks. In you first example at this stage on the tourny i always think that if you are going to play a pot that grows to be that size then i am either all in or not in at all. The terms raise or fold are never more true than at the end of a NL HE tourny ! Chasepoker | ||
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| Re: Please Give Comments/Criticism of NL Tourney Hands, Andrew Wells, 25. Jul 2003 06:36 | ||
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| I'm saying don't splash around with hands that you may have to release if someone comes over the top hard, because: A) You have a good stack to reach the final table (and the money) without speculating B) You are in early position, not a blind steal spot C) One or both of the blinds has a large stack like yours. | ||
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| Re: Please Give Comments/Criticism of NL Tourney Hands, shorn, 25. Jul 2003 06:23 | ||
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| I agree with Andrew. I think you should have floded the A6s pre-flop. But, when you played it, you have to let it go when he bets out at that flop. Hell, he could have 77 for all you know and then you are drawing very thin. At this point in the game, you need to conserve your chips for the final table. | ||
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| Re: Please Give Comments/Criticism of NL Tourney Hands, SmellsLikeVictory, 25. Jul 2003 08:24 | ||
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| >> A player I respect very much told me at the break that I have to add >> on for the full 60 bucks Yep. These unlimited rebuys ending with a half price add-on basically ensures all will have a long initial time to play and almost no one will be eliminated. Everyone rebuys to stay alive for the cheap addon. When offered chips at half the price of the original buy-in, you almost always have to take it and when you see that cheap add-on always assume up front that you'll be taking it. It's only after this add on that the real tournament begins. >> Next hand it is folded to me 3 off button, I pick up AQ, Don't make these baby raises with the blinds this big (and I assume there are antes at this point) and a healthy stack. You're giving the blinds too good of odds (again, assuming antes are added to pot) to call you. Maybe the kid folds his A9o, too. >> I limp for some reason You MUST raise this here. You're "mixing it up" reasoning doesn't make sense. If I understand this correctly, it's folded to you in LP and you open limp. Blinds are too big at this stage to be jerking around with trying to limp and trap someone on a bizzare flop. If there were a couple of callers in front of you, then limp. The worst play you could make late in a tourney with the money near is giving blinds free shot at you. Fold or raise. And I totally disagree with the posters who say fold this. Late in a tourney you have to steal as often as possible and Ax is a prime stealing hand to do this with since it has high card value. Raise 3-4X BB and take down the blinds. | ||
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| Re: Please Give Comments/Criticism of NL Tourney Hands, shorn, 25. Jul 2003 08:38 | ||
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| on 25. Jul 2003 08:24 SmellsLikeVictory wrote: Fold or raise. And I totally disagree with the posters who say fold > this. Late in a tourney you have to steal as often as possible and Ax is a prime > stealing hand to do this with since it has high card value. Raise 3-4X BB and take > down the blinds. That may be true if you have an average or small stack. However, with a second place stack, you don't need to aggressively steal at this point, especially when the player that you are trying to steal from is the chip leader and has been playing somewhat loose. Why risk your chips agains a losse player who has more than you late in the tournament just to pick up a few blinds? IMO, that is a dumb play. This is a must fold GIVEN the circumstances described. | ||
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| Re: Please Give Comments/Criticism of NL Tourney Hands, SmellsLikeVictory, 25. Jul 2003 11:11 | ||
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| Looking at the post again, it looks like he's somewhere in MP. So not the auto raise I thought at first. Still raise or fold, though, I hate the limp. I would still raise with this hand fairly often, even with the CL in the BB. CL isn't going to want a big confrontation with CL2, either. A6s still beats most hands and you can get away from it pretty easily if reraised or post flop. | ||
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| Re: Please Give Comments/Criticism of NL Tourney Hands, Andrew Wells, 25. Jul 2003 19:25 | ||
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| He told you exactly where he was. The previous hand AQ he was 3 off the button, that puts his A6s clearly in early position. The concern here if he makes it 6000 to go with this hand is that someone behind him will either come over the top (and he's now out 1/4 of his stack) or someone will go all-in with a pocket pair or a hand that has A6s dominated. If someone goes all-in, that may interest the big blind into seeing the flop as well. If he was closer to the button, then there would be fewer players who may make a stand. I think the hand is too weak to look for both middle position players, the cutoff, the button, and both blinds to muck often enough to be profitable. If this was really in late position, then a semisteal attempt is more likely to work. I'm assuming both the remaining two tables are full. If it's six or seven handed at his table and players have severely tightened up due to the bubble effect, then it may be okay to make such a steal even UTG with his stack. I would prefer to have twenty or more big blinds in my stack to do this though, so the initial raise could be more like 10000 (or enough to completely cover an entire stack of about half of the players at the table). | ||
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