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Server Time: 8/29/2008 9:32:10 PM PACIFIC |
 SHOWING LOSING HANDS, Giocatore, 24. Jul 2003 08:58 | ||
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| In general, I'm not a big fan of showing my hand after I have lost. On the rare occasions when I do so, it's usually after something absurd has occurred where the winning player was a huge underdog before sucking out, for example hitting a 2-outer on the river or a runner runner straight. Recently however, I have observed more and more players who have showed their losing hands, and I'll give three examples from hand histories. Game: 3/6 HE, 6-handed, I'm the BB, everyone has folded to the SB, who raised and I called. Board: 10h Ac Qs 6d 2c GIOCATORE: Kh Jd - Straight, A-10 (Flopped the nuts) Losing Player: 2d 2 h - 3 of a kind, deuces (Showed Hand) - In this case I was more than thrilled that this player chased his 22:1 draw, earning me a few extra big bets. Yet why would he possibly show the table? I, for one, found this valuable in that by showing his hand, he also showed that he is the type of player who will chase practically anything, despite what is on board. Game: 3/6 HE, 6 handed, I'm the button and call 2 bets from the raiser before me, SB folds, BB calls. Board: 8d 9c 9d Ks 10h GIOCATORE: 8h 8s - Full House, 8's full of 9's Losing Player (Original Raiser): 10d Kd - Two Pair with a flush draw (Showed Hand) - In this case I could see this player calling me down, yet after he attempted to check-raise me on the river, which cost him 2 additional big bets, he not only showed his hand but typed "lol" in the chat box. If you ask me, this guy was looking for nothing more than mere sympathy. He then said something else, I can't quite remember the exact words, prompting me to tell him, "You were beat the entire way, just toss your cards in the muck next time." Game: 10/20 HE, 10-handed, I'm the button +2 and raise after everyone has folded to me, SB folds, BB calls. Board: 3c 7h 10c Ad 8c GIOCATORE: 7s 7c - 3 of a Kind, 7's BB: 2c Jc - Flush, Jack High *** Here is a case where I showed a losing hand. After flopping a set of sevens, the BB proceeded to check and call both the flop and the turn. However, when he checked the river after the third club fell, I also checked, despite my strong holding, and in essence saved myself 2 big bets from a check raise which undoubtedly was coming. After seeing his flush, and taking into consideration the fact that there was little money in the pot to justify his chasing of that last club, I wanted to show him my set of sevens and simply typed in the chat box, "You missed a bet." I'm curious to hear your thoughts on the topic of showing losing hands. As we all know, hand histories provide us with that information if we're curious enough, yet people continuously show their losing hands, even when they're making fools out of themselves by doing so and saving the table the trouble of requesting such. I'm interested to hear if there are any of you who show their losing hands on occasion and what your basis is for doing so, since I previously stated that I'm not a big fan of doing so. Thanks in advance and good luck in your games. Giocatore | ||
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| Re: SHOWING LOSING HANDS, MouseBeast, 24. Jul 2003 09:24 | ||
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| Im finding out more and more that players (like yourself, for certain) who have a good grasp of poker strategy and odds and who play really solid poker, more often than not give some of their opponents way too much credit in terms of their knowledge of the game. Most, if not all of the more advanced strategies and plays are completely lost on some of these fishy blokes. Im of the opinion that when u stumble across one of these clueless players, it's best to realize that their 'ignorance is bliss' type of play effectively neturalizes your ability to use anything out of your little bag of tricks, so i would just start playing really straightforward solid poker, and in the long run they'll pay u off everytime. I am a huge opponent to showing just about any of my cards, win or lose... in this case though, i really liked the idea because you were basically encouraging the guy to chase those draws! Im curious to know whether or not u think that maneuver helped any in getting him to pay u off later in that session... Regards, MouseBeast "You have been weighed, you have been measured, and you have been found wanting. In what world could you possibly beat me? " | ||
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| Re: SHOWING LOSING HANDS, Jav, 24. Jul 2003 10:04 | ||
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| I try to keep the "don't show losing or uncalled hands" button on whatever site I'm playing on always checked. Personally I'm just too tempted to show people my good hands when I get sucked out on. But I usually play very tight online, so I think showing them anything is usually a mistake. I'd rather them believe I was chasing or weak and just lost, rather than them thinking I played with a strong hand and lost. I also love when other people show their hands, because I just gained information on what they will pay, and how they will play it. I almost always say "nh" when someone shows thier hand, mostly because I want to encourage them and others to keep showing their hands. If I gain information about several people in one hand that can be invaluable. But for myself, I try not to show my hand unless I have a good reason for doing so (which I usually don't).... | ||
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| Re: SHOWING LOSING HANDS, Guru, 24. Jul 2003 10:10 | ||
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| I don't believe in showing losing hands much, either. I do, however, believe that it is a practice that can be used by a solid player to encourage continued bad play from fish. In your first two examples, I thing showing the card was just dumb. The players were essentially telling everyone that they are fish. In your example, though, showing the cards was borderline, but you did show the other player his reward for sucking out. The way you describe the hand, I think he made the wrong call, but got lucky. Yes, he hit the four flush, but he didn't have the pot odds to call it to the river. He got lucky and you encouraged him to continue doing the same thing, which will lose him money in the long run. So, IMO, the only good reason to show any non-winning cards is either to advertise or to encourage continued bad play. You have to be selective, though. | ||
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| Re: SHOWING LOSING HANDS, Giocatore, 24. Jul 2003 10:15 | ||
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| Guru, You're right. The only reason I showed my set of sevens was to show him that he not only lucked out on the river without proper pot odds but also to rub in the fact that I had the discipline to check my monster and cost him 2 big bets, or $40 in this case, which is why I sarcastically typed "You missed a bet." Thanks for the response. I'm also looking forward to other viewpoints. Giocatore | ||
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| Re: SHOWING LOSING HANDS, doctorfat, 24. Jul 2003 10:20 | ||
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| I wouldn't have reminded him that he "missed a bet." You certainly don't want to improve his play (not that your sarcastic comment would really do so, but you never know). | ||
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| Re: SHOWING LOSING HANDS, Schuster, 24. Jul 2003 12:34 | ||
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| on 24. Jul 2003 10:20 doctorfat wrote: > I wouldn't have reminded him that he "missed a bet." You certainly don't want to improve his > play (not that your sarcastic comment would really do so, but you never know). I agree 100%. Would you like him to bet his flush next time you're in this situation? I sure wouldn't, why tell him that it would be good to do so? | ||
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| Re: SHOWING LOSING HANDS, Jav, 24. Jul 2003 10:48 | ||
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| Many people will play any four flush to the river regardless of pot odds (they may not even know the concept). In general I think it's a bad idea to point out to fish when they made a mistake. Some people will play better or leave just so they won't get comments from other players. You don't want the fish to leave, and you don't want the fish to play better, so it's usually just best to say nothing or compliment them on their hand. | ||
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| Re: SHOWING LOSING HANDS, 4 POKER, 24. Jul 2003 19:51 | ||
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| Hey Gio, The only time I might show a losing hand (and this pertains to my "live" poker games), is if I was trying to make a play like raising in EP with 6-5 suited (or something like that) to try to put them off the right thinking and correct decision making the NEXT time they're in a hand with me. I might accidentally (he, he) flip it up if I don't get to flip it up as in "to take the pot".....this way my "move" gets credited and it's registered in their minds now. But you have to make sure that if you do flip it up....that you really feel that the hand has no bearing to the flop and/or if it will now possibly change the way somebody else feels about his own holding. BUT......I would NEVER show anyone a legitimate hand.......especially one that flopped really good for me......NO way. Why let anyone know how you play and/or, how you played a particular hand in a particular situation. That is just giving waaay too much information to the other players, (*including the good players that may be sitting at your game), and if they're smart enough to pick up on it.....then you may just have educated that player, and that is something that you don't want to do. (let them learn for themselves). So Gio, even if they do hit a 2-outer against your monster flop......don't show it. I really think that you'll be able to re-group a little bit better and faster if you keep those things to yourself... I really do, Gio. And one more thing, the only thing you want to type in (if anything at all), is "nice hand". That alone will let them *think* that they *should* have been there with their hand, even though *you* will know that they shouldn't have. And anytime you make a derogatory comment, it can only hurt you, while educating the others. (just a tip, Gio). Showing bluffs and stuff like that is ok to do once in awhile, and to the *right* player, so that move has to be used with discretion as well. If you chose to never show your hands (unless they're winning hands of course)...then your opponents will have a less accurate "read" on you, and *that* is what you should be looking to achieve! Buona fortuna a te', Gio. 4 POKER | ||
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| Re: SHOWING LOSING HANDS, stdioh, 25. Jul 2003 14:55 | ||
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| Sometimes I'll show a successful bluff if I think that I can cause the player to play badly on successive hands. For instance, one of the "pros" at Brantford (I use quotes because I don't think he's a long term winner, but he's there all the damn hell time) was having a hard time one day. He was steaming and raising just about every hand, but nobody at the table was picking on him. It was much like what Jan Fischer described in her recent cardplayer column. He was in a state where he would put in a lot of chips without a hand and then fold. I three bet him preflop with Q2o becasue I wanted to get him heads up and then fold him off whatever he had. He capped, but I wasn't too worried. The flop brough rags and we went four bets again. The turn brought and ace and here's where I made my play. I checked to him and he checked as well and I gave the slightest hint of dissapointment that my checkraise didn't work. The river brings another ace, I bet and then start watching TV in my "I'm a fish on a monster" act. He thinks, looks at me disgustedly, and mucks. I flip over Q2o and he bemoans it so badly that the dealers are still talking about the move (needless to say he is unpopular with the dealers). Why did I flip it over? To this day he'll never fold a pair to a bet I make and any time I play him I can milk him for an extra big bet every couple of hours. | ||
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| Re: SHOWING LOSING HANDS, TexRoadkill, 29. Jul 2003 15:48 | ||
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| Mabye it's just me but I don't ever want another player to know I bluffed. I would rather be respected as having big hands and win more bluffs in the future than never be able to bluff again. You can always count on getting shitty cards but you can never count on getting the nuts. | ||
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