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Server Time: 9/4/2008 10:33:17 PM PACIFIC |
 What to do on the turn? Omaha 8, Snorbolus, 23. Jul 2003 08:57 | ||
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| In a lose, $5-10 O8 game: I call one bet from late position with AsKhJsJc. The button calls, small blind folds and we see the flop with 5 players in for one bet each. Flop: AhQs3s Check, bet, call. I call with 9 outs to the nut flush and 3 (non-spade tens) to the nut straight. The button calls and the big blind folds. At this point I reason that I have 12 outs to at least half the pot; about 3:1 against having the nuts on the turn. 6 of my outs will leave a low still not made. The pot has 7.5 small bets minus rake. However, there are still 2 players to act behind me. The button folds and the big blind calls. Turn: Ac Check, bet, call. Now the board is paired. My only nut outs are the last ace, 3 kings and 2 jacks. Is this worth a call? Snorbolus | ||
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| Re: What to do on the turn? Omaha 8, 4 POKER, 23. Jul 2003 10:05 | ||
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| I think your holding is worth a call on the turn, (but I would like to illustrate more on the situation) and keep in mind, there's only three of you left in the pot. The initial bettor probably holds the last Ace given his EP and his aggression on the flop and the turn....and knowing something about your opponents starting hand requirements would help as well. I've put in a ton of hours in this game and even with on-line play, I am aware of which players play certain cards, especially from an up-front position. Later on you will find that to be helpful when trying to make even better choices about your own hand and its potential to improve/win. Now even though I'm going to give him the case Ace given his EPand betting (agressor), you still hold the highest kicker to go with your own Ace, so if he's not full yet and does not hold a King, at that point (assuming that the other player doesn't have a full-house), and if the river brings no improvement to his hand...unless the last card brings a wheel card (2-4-5), your hand could still hold up. Keep in mind you do have the flush draw to go with it, and if there were more players in the pot I'd say you'd have a less likely of a chance to hold on to trip Aces as remaining the nuts because someone else could accidentally back into a full house with a smaller pocket pair because he was really shooting for the low draw, not the high. With just the 3 of you in there, I would make the call, but keep in mind, if your opponent does hold the case Ace, than your only safe nut out cards would be the 3 remaining Kings because he could also be holding the Queen as well thus leaving the 2 last Jacks as dead outs. If the river card completes the wheel (A-2-3-4-5) and it does *not* complete your flush....*if* there is now a bet and or a raise, you'd have to fold because with that other player hangin' around checking but calling all bets...he's probably drawing to the wheel given the fact that you *know* what you are holding, so you'd have to ask yourself now, "what hand is the more likely hand that the calling station is calling with here?" Unless he's sandbagging with Aces full (and that's not likely given his extreme slowplay on the turn), like I said, he's more than likely to be drawing to the low/nut wheel. And that's why you couldn't call a bet on the river if a card came up that completed a wheel without it also containing one of your flush draw outs. But....if the river does bring a flush card, at that point you'd still have to decide if you would make the call if the original aggressor still came out bettingbecause more than likely...if he bets it again with a flush now present, he's full. Now...if you feel that your opponent *does* have Aces full but you think he has Aces full of 3's and NOT Aces full of Q's, then if the river card does bring the Jack, you should raise here if he bets and Why?....because if that was one of the cards that you were drawing to, if you hit your card, you're supposed to raise or why else call in the first place if you *already* thought that he held Aces full of Q's.Even though you wouldn't hold the *absolute* nuts, if you can't raise with Aces full of Jacks, IMHO, you shouldn't be making the call then on the turn with just drawing to 3 clean nut outs (K's).The pot was not laying you enough to go for a 3 outer, so keep all of that in mind before you make the call on the turn. The same thing would apply if you were in a heads up situation with just you and the aggressor....if you make the call on the *turn*, if the river brings a flush, you're *supposed to raise*, otherwise you made a really bad call on the turn thinking that you could only hit the king in order to make a raise. If you hit a flush, or one of the 2 case Jacks, you must raise in this spot or the money that you threw in on the turn would mean nothing because you wouldn't be making *him* pay now when you do river a made hand because keep in mind Aces full of Jacks is the same as the nut flush *if *he does hold Aces full of Queens. (they would both lose). 4 POKER | ||
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| Re: What to do on the turn? Omaha 8, Snorbolus, 23. Jul 2003 10:27 | ||
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| Thanks for the reply 4 POKER. I only have time for a quick skim through right now, I'm at work and all. I will read it again later. Seems like very good advice on how to think about the hand. Exactly the sort of think that I was hopeing for when I posted. Snorbolus | ||
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| Re: What to do on the turn? Omaha 8, 4 POKER, 23. Jul 2003 10:29 | ||
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| Good Luck. Hope it's helpful to you. I want to add one more reason why your call is more correct here. Your 3 Aces with the nut kicker could very well be the best hand at this point leaving you even more of the favorite because if neither of you improve, your hand would win in a showdown.And if he's not full you're also more of a favorite to improve because you would also be drawing to the nut flush and if one of your flush card comes and it is not a card that completes his hand for a full house, you would still win the pot. And, keep in mind...if you do fill up, it's a scooper! If there was already a low, it would be a definite muck with so little invested, but not for a scoop *and* because you may just have the best hand already especially with just 3 of you in there. So all in all, you may actually have more outs to your hand to improve as being the best hand. (but of course, I'm only applying this to you and the aggressor because I feel the calling station is drawing for the low only, because even if he held a 4-flush as well, yours would surely be the nuts). Thanks snorbolus. 4P- | ||
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