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Server Time: 8/29/2008 12:11:22 PM PACIFIC |
 online poker rigged??, Mike812, 23. Jul 2003 08:50 | ||
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| I know we have had this discussion many of times, but I would like to start it back up with a theory of my own. Online poker has its share of bad beats.. As everyone can tell by the posts on this website, and in general. 1) After playing at various websites, I have noticed that the cards are "action": meaning that they are always playable in a sense. 2) Many people have argued that the sites have nothing to lose. Why would they cheat their players? I think you guys are 100% correct, they have NO reason to cheat anyone. But at the same time, they have NO reason to prevent cheating. Why should the sites implement security to prevent hackers and collusions when in the long run the money comes right back to them. It would be a waste of money for them. 3) None of the sites have any type of protection against hackers and collusions. I read a post on RGP where the guy had a screename on party and on empire. He would play in the same room with the screename Sleepy and Sleepy2. There were complaints but party did not do anything about it 4) Action cards cause more people to play in hands because of the cards they receive. Yes, it is true that some people are on good and bad runs. But if it is a 220 to 1 chance of receiving AA then how is it possible to see it a couple of times a hour when I am playing? 5) I am not posting this because I have had a "bad beat" I have only played once online and that was the UPF tourney in the past month. These are just some observations I have made, and would like to start a discussion/debate on If I am correct, there is NOTHING we can do to stop online cheating. The sites have no incentive to prevent it, and when they do catch someone cheating, it is no publicized. The site keeps the money and encourages people to keep on gambling without any type of protection | ||
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| Re: online poker rigged??, pt_Gatsby, 23. Jul 2003 10:41 | ||
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| I think I only have one comment on all this: Collusion could be becoming somewhat of a problem (unproven, but getting a bit suspicious). After a horrible evening last night, I was in the mood to find something wrong... but I played in 3 sitngos and one ring table. I'm not sure if it was an accident or not, but some of the players were quite chummy. That's not to say that they were colluding, but there have been a few tables where the people were almost certainly RL friends. To be fair, a friend of mine plays on Pokerstars, but since we mostly play multi table tournaments (ie: 400 people+) we have never even sat at the same table. We play heads up with play money and other things to practise and learn. If we did sit down at a table together, we may discuss our hands after the round, but never during... That, and I doubt that if they were colluding they would be talking to each other in the room. At the same time, I remember a friend my mine taking criminology and saying that those that are doing it (at the amateur level) will almost always flaunt it... The professionals won't, but you can expect that where amateurs try, professionals succeed. So I'm really not sure, but collusion itself seems to be a given. The level of it is still in doubt, but since I already RA into my computer from work, there is no reason I couldn't play twice on the same system. How much of an advantage would there be? Since I play in 6 people sit n gos, I know all too well what happens when two people are cooperating (not colluding exactly, but trying to knock a lower stack out). I'm pretty sure that its a huge advantage in the tournament style games and not just because of the knowledge of other cards. There is also the ability to target remaining players with the stronger hand... I don't think it would be profitable in the 6player games... you would have to have a significant win ratio to cover the cost to play. That doesn't stop people from trying and it may even be effective. --- As a side rant... I got dealt 11 flush hands, which got matched up (4 card flush) on the flop yesterday. Exactly 0 of them got made. By the end of the night, I refused to play the hands properly. Which turned out good, because while the table thought I was being tight and they could steal my blinds, I would estimate 80% of my hands were statistically below 50% winners (ie: sub average hands). Except for the breaking hand, which KQs, with 4sJs10h flopped managed to get beat by a pair of freaking jacks... Do I have to count the outs in that thing? Anyway, had to let that out. Not rigged, but... I am worried that the popularity of the sites has created a sort of haven for attempting this behaviour. | ||
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| Re: online poker rigged??, Mike812, 23. Jul 2003 10:50 | ||
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| online poker has created a lot of controversies. But one thing many sites can not do anything about is instant messaging. I have never done it myself but it is not that hard to IM someone with your two whole cards, or message someone with a strategy to bully out a smaller stack. You are incorrect when it says its not profitable in the lower tourney games b/c of several reasons. By messaging each other, these players have a slight advantage over everyone at the table. If they lose a tourney, they lose the $10 or $20 by entering into the tournament. BUT, by winning the tournament they will be making $30-$50 by cheating out other players. They can gain a lot by putting in a little. By playing in $100 tourneys, they risk losing $100. THey can play in smaller tourneys with inexperienced players, and slowly build up a bankroll. It is true that this can be applied to higher limit games but it is hard to bully a experienced player (he might either fold or re-raise when he has the nuts). Whereas an inexperiened player will make more mistakes. How many times have you had like 8-10 off suit, and the flop comes 10-10-8? (hypothetical example) That information to someone in the hand is invaluable. Sure, someone else might have an 8 or 10, but that information gives the cheaters a slight advantage over other players. Their risk of losing has diminished and it gives players such as ourselves a great disadvantage. Collusion does happen in B&M, but it is so much easier to pull off online. I have become more and more suspicious of online cheating in the past couple days. I think it is becoming more widespread, and the fact that most people do not want to believe it makes it worse. They use justifications such as "why would people cheat" or "it doesnt happen to me" creates more problems and more suckers. I am not saying that it is prevelant but I am saying that there is a high possibility that it occurs. Just think about it. Any slight advantage a player has is an advantage he has over you. Forget about tells, etc. He has the ultimate tell on you. If my cheating partner tells me he had A-3 and folded and I'm holding AA or A-K. I'm going to re-raise you because I just eliminated some of the hands that you can be holding. This form of cheating is so easy to pull off, and I do not think the sites will or can do anything to stop it. All we are going to is bitch and complain about it, and throw in another $100 to "teach" these "fishes" how to really play poker. But, in reality they are really playing us. my 2 cents Mike | ||
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| Re: online poker rigged??, 4 POKER, 23. Jul 2003 11:02 | ||
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| Hey Mike, I agree with everything you have spoken about except for one part. You mentioned that it would be really hard to cheat a professional because they would know when to check-raise and/or fold but in all honesty.....*anyone* would be in great danger if there was collusion at the table....even the pro would have a hard time overcoming a cheater.(especially in a shorthanded game or a single table S-N-G). He may not lose as much, but that doesn't matter......when someone is colluding with another player, everyone loses. | ||
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| Re: online poker rigged??, pt_Gatsby, 23. Jul 2003 12:37 | ||
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| > But one thing many sites can not do anything about is instant messaging True, but not really the problem. The problem is the players playing in the same game. The best way I know of that this has been delt with is to have sign up sheets. For example, you sign up for a $5 NL sitngo. You don't pick the table - you just get added to a list, and it randomly places you at one of the tables. The tables start ever X time, not when the list is full... thus during peak times, you have a minor chance of sitting together... The solution doesn't require a technical solution, IOW. > ... not profitable in the lower tourney games b/c of several > reasons. ...they lose the $10 or $20 by entering into the tournament. > by winning the tournament they will be making $30-$50 Lets play this out. You pay 5.50 to enter into a 5$ sitngo. Therefore, you put up 11 dollars, with first paying out 21 and second playing 9. If you get one of the hands into first, then you are up 10$. If you place both, you get 19 dollars up. If you place neither, you lose 11. Now, statistically you have a +EV, don't get me wrong, but I'm not sure that the players at this level are sophisticated enough to run a +EV scenario. The advantages of collusion are *not* in knowing two more dead cards (we are talking micro-percent advantage - try it in a hand simulator!). The occasional big deal is too rare to account for. What the real issue would be is co-operative playing. Bullying players. Can you imagine playing a 3 handed game where the opponent plays two hands and only has to eliminate you? That's the main problem... Friends aren't as likely as single players spoofing a second account. > Whereas an inexperiened player will make more mistakes. Granted. I meant that the time invested in this would probably not be as worthwhile. Your edge isn't automatic, and when you lose you are going to be losing a lot. > How many times have you had like 8-10 off suit, and the flop comes 10-10-8? Granted, it can happen. What happens when your partner has 2-7 and the flop comes up AAK and are facing a huge bet? It doesn't fundamentally change your odds (ie: playing two hands is fine, but you put up twice as much money), outside of the way you can bet... Which is a huge problem. > I am not saying that it is prevelant I am saying it is prevelant and is a problem. I just don't have sufficient proof. I'm going on a simple conjecture: Motive: Money Opportunity: Omnipresent Risk: Minute Punishment: Minute Evidence: Many friends playing together, thus casually colluding. Friends who keep their mouths shut, certainly. Friends in need helping each other scam? Inevitable. > but I am saying that there is a high possibility that it occurs. No arguement, don't get me wrong. I think its a huge problem. > and I do not think the sites will or can do anything to stop it. There is always a way... but until it is brought up in great numbers, nothing will be done about it. | ||
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| Re: online poker rigged??, Mike812, 23. Jul 2003 12:50 | ||
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| Gatsby, That is a great post. Nothing I am going to argue with you. I love the idea about the sign-up sheet, and of course cheaters are not going to win every single hand they are in. They just have a slight advantage over anyone which means we have to play top notch poker to beat them. Another thing, your idea only applies to tournament games. What about ring games? What about a 6 person table and lets say 2 or 3 are colluding? Lets say you have a marginal hand, open up for a bet. Maybe A-10. 3 players re-raise each other and by the time it gets back to you, you are going to have to call 2 or even 3 bets! Thats alot of bets pre-flop. Moving on,...lets say the flop comes K-2-6 rainbow. And you bet, and the cheaters re-raise you again! Are you going to stay in this hand? Maybe..but more than likely no, so you fold. They just took 3-4 bets from you... In a 10-20 game, thats alot of bets. Now all the rest of the cheaters have to do is fold, and the last person wins. At the end of the night, they split their winnings and go home. In reality, ring games can be done like this. In a 6 person table, you are playing against 2-3 other people. They have a 1 in 2 chance of winning while we are stuck with a 1 in 6 chance of winning. You do the odds.. Of course we are going to have those monster hands where we beat them every ONCE in a while..but look at all the money they took from you! I can not prove it happens but it very much can. I am not a mastermind cheater, but if I can think about it..I'm pretty sure their are cheaters out there that have even better techniques etc . But I do have to disagree on the cards. Yes, they do not make a big deal. But lets say you think that someone is on a flush or straight draw. Between all the cheaters they hold 4 of the flush cards, and there are 2 on the board. Thats 6 accounted cards out of 13. That leaves only 7 outs instead of 11. His chances of hitting a flush are decreased. ANother example.. Lets say one cheated folded 5-6. The flop is 2-3-4 or even 3-4-7. We can pretty much eliminate anyone holding the straight, statisically they would be on a draw. Just like in poker, there are instances where the cheater will lose. But in the long run they will win. Also when I was referring to messages I was talking about outside messaging programs such as AIM or MSN. | ||
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| Re: online poker rigged??, pt_Gatsby, 23. Jul 2003 13:40 | ||
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| > What about ring games? That's a bit more difficult. Players will not like be randomly seated, I think. However, you could have the alternative of playing at a set table or a randomly seated one (with randomly meaning you can't pop in and out until your happy where you are). I wasn't really trying to come up with a full fledged solution, only to demonstrate that ICQ/AIM/MSN isn't the problem... its the game design that needs to be addressed. They can collude, no question, one way or another. You can't prevent that side of it. > In a 10-20 game, thats alot of bets. I understand what you are saying, but you can't draw on specific hands. Lets reverse this situation: You are delt AA, and AK5 comes up. The partners in crime have KK or similar, and pump the pot like what you were describing. At the end of the night, they are not making money from that hand. Your description can happen even if they weren't colluding - it just happens that you get some people playing like that. However, they are still obligated to put up money - twice as much as you - to do what you are talking about. Collusion isn't that kind of an advantage in open ended games. You can get bullied, and it should be prevented, but my focus is on tournament games. 5/6 people in a fixed pay out is far worse than 5/6 people in an open table. Fixed payouts win when you are eliminated, that's it. Your chances of winning went from some 16% to 5% or less. Though, they are only earning $2.50 (or 50% of one persons bet)... The point being that you have a diminishing return for every person you sponsor at the same table. (ie: 1 person - 15.50, 2 person - 19.00, 3 - 14.50, 4 - 8.00, 5 - 2.50, 6 - -2.50). You would have to do an advantage graph to determine the actual value, but I would estimate the changes to be about (1 - 16%, 2 - 34%, 3 - 55%, 4 - 75%, 5 - 95%, 6 - 100%). Note that i'm not disagreeing with the +EV from cheating, just putting it in perspective. Its not the end all, so to speak. You can't take up cheating to automatically make money, it takes a lot of work. For every hand that it will directly help, you are mathematically in the minority. You are increasing a small edge over many hands. You basicly have to take up being a simulator and not play bad hands that could still lose. Its an edge, but only an edge. Which is enough to be highly critical of it, of course. | ||
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| Re: online poker rigged??, Frank Grimes, 23. Jul 2003 11:24 | ||
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| I don't doubt collusion among players occurs and am doubtful that it could be stopped. The very nature of online play is that you do not really know your opponents or what other activities they are participating in while playing. Caveat emptor. As far as the site owners themselves engaging in these activities, I am very skeptical. As others have stated before, the sites are already lucrative operating above-board; why anyone would risk it all by doing something illegal is beyond reason. Others have mentioned the possibility that code is engineered to rip off players. While this is not impossible, it is highly improbable simply because, as with all conspiracies, it requires too many people to be involved. I have experience with software creation, testing and implementation. It is rarely accomplished with one or two people and often involves many, many people to design, review, and test. | ||
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| Re: online poker rigged??, Mike812, 23. Jul 2003 12:04 | ||
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| I did not say that the site creators were in on the so-called "scam". I said that they have nothing to lose so why risk it? At the same time, they will not do anything to prevent online cheating. Why spend millions of dollars preventing cheating when in the long-run, all that money comes to them anyways? Little by little, they will rake in each pot. The cheaters can always cheat people out of their money, but the site is ultimately the winner in the long - run Think about it. You deposit $50 into partypoker.com. How long does that $50 last? Not that long. Lets say in a week, you win about one pot an hour. And you play 8 hours a day. Hypothetically, $0.50 rake on one pot an hour. In one day, that would equal $4.00 and in one week that would equal to $28.00. (This is if you win one pot an hour). The site takes $28.00 just in rakes, now your $50-$28 = $32 plus your winnings. Lets say you win $50 a week (since you put in $50) Now you have spent 40 hours playing poker to win a measly $78 dollars. Trust me, thats way below minimum wage. This is just a hypothetical situation if you are winning. It is even worse if you are losing to fishes, cheaters, etc. At least Vegas and other casino places have spent millions of dollars catching cheaters. At least, I feel some type of security in those multi-million dollar buildings. On the other hand, how can I feel safe when partypoker is running out of someones garage in India? All you really need is a powerful server (something they wont even spend $$$ on) and get Mike Sexton to advertise you on WPT and BOOOOM! You are raking in millions a week. If I was the CEO or partypoker.com, I would not have ONE thing to worry about. All that money that gets deposited, HARDLY comes back out. It is the mindstate and psychology of the gambler. They want to build up a bankroll, they want to win win win. They dont want to withddraw funds and buy clothes with it. The majority of players love the thrill. 9 out of 10 players will be depositing more than they will be withdrawing. And where does all that money go? Not to the cheaters, and not to us, You guessed it right. To the lazy people at partypoker that cant even afford a more powerful server with all the money they rake in. At least in the short-run, we have some chance of winning if there werent any cheaters. We could use our skills and techniques to win, and continue to win. We would take the money from the losers, and in turn giving a percentage of that to the house. But it sucks when the house does not do anything for us by letting cheaters prosper. That is where it gets frustrating for any player | ||
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| Re: online poker rigged??, Frank Grimes, 23. Jul 2003 12:48 | ||
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| Given your reservations about the ability of the providers to offer security, I would simply recommend not playing online. It certainly sounds like you are not comfortable with it. Personally I prefer B&Ms because I like the dynamic of playing at a real table with "live" people and will only play low limits online (.25-.50). | ||
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| Re: online poker rigged??, Mike812, 23. Jul 2003 12:54 | ||
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| Frank You are correct. I have stopped playing online unless it is for fun. I do not play high limit games, I reserve myself to places where I feel that cheating occurs the less. I still LOVE playing poker with a passion, but it just does not feel secure playing online. Also, on top of that if I buy in a local game for $100. I play much better than depositing $100 online. For some reason, holding a chip in my hand feels like a lot more money than pressing bet on the computer. I love playing poker, and I will continue to do so. But it will be limited to, tournaments such as UPF :) or any tournament where I feel cheating is minimized or can hardly occur. If hackers can hack into any website, why not hack into the goldmine of them all???? PARTYPOKER!!! ahaha...i mean it only makes sense to me Mike | ||
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| Re: online poker rigged??, Mike812, 23. Jul 2003 13:02 | ||
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| I think we should collectively develop a discussion on cheating. What are the signs of it...How do we know it is happening to us, and what techniques cheaters use. In my opinion, it is always better to be safe than to be sorry. | ||
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| Re: online poker rigged??, stdioh, 23. Jul 2003 13:49 | ||
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| There are online pros. They make money consistently without cheating. Thus if there is cheating online, it isn't so bad that you can't overcome it with good play. Case closed, in my books. | ||
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| Re: online poker rigged??, ITGUY, 23. Jul 2003 19:53 | ||
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| I have been in the IT field since 64k of memory was a big deal and so I am fairly competent in the field. It's really funny because I have always known there are too many loopholes with on-line gambling due to it's infancy stage of developement for me to trust it. But I decided after all this time to try it for myself. All my poker associates said they would never do it as it's too risky as far as they were concerned and I of all people should know better. "Hell, you can't trust a poker player you can see let alone one with a phony name, said my buddy Don!! Ignoring their sage advice I have been playing on-line for about a month. I also prefer B&M for all the same reasons others have spoken about. I too have noticed what I consider 'high-odds' hands and cards hitting very regularly. I have also noticed many many times what I consider above normal 'action cards' hitting several players at once (possibly to increase the rake?). I do believe the regularity of these happenings is far far greater on line than at a real table but I base this observation on only 8 years of play. But at best, it seems sporadic or at least cyclical. On some sites, considering the number of hands that are being dealt in an hour, maybe the odds of such strange happenings could be considered normal, I don't know. After watching this thread I decided to try it out myself and actually DO what some suspect. Being an IT Admin I find this very easy. So today, first thing, I create 2 more accounts on a site where I already have one (real easy to do). So here I am are sitting in the server room with 3 monitors side by side watching three different hands on the same table. (can be done when controlling the IP information of the networks..the sites see completely different IP addresses so have no clue they are all originating from the same network in the same room using 3 different computers so the MAC addresses obviously are different. This can be accomplished at home as well) So now there is no need for any kind of IM's or anyone elses help. Does it help when sitting at an online table of 6 or 7 players and you are 3 of them? Take a wild guess on that one. It took but 7 hands to determine, for me anyway, that on-line poker is scary at best. With all the scam artists etc. in this world I find it hard to believe that there isn't alot of this going on. After 7 hands and winning 3, I waited for the guys who I beat to be heads up with me, folded, thereby returning his money plus in all 3 cases and quit. Yes, I am superstitious about gambling and I certainly believe in what goes around comes around and "when you dance you will pay the piper". Bottom line: I transfered my money from this site back to neteller and no longer play on line in ring games. I do love poker but I want to win when my skill/luck allows, not by cheating. What have you gained then but ill-gotten gains which will bite you in the ass someday (right or wrong, I believe it). I prefer being a real poker player not a con man. Will that kind of a setup make you rich? Not neccessarily but you do have an advantage to say the least. Will you win every hand? No, but you wouldn't want to do that anyway as it would be too obvious. Bottom Line:::I don't play on line anymore...period... I probably shouldn't have done what I did but I had to know for myself because to this point all I read was unfounded opinions and we all know about opinions. Oh, by the way, tonight I called my partner Don just so he could say "told ya so".. Good luck at the real tables but you'll need more than that on-line. | ||
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| Re: online poker rigged??, chasepoker, 23. Jul 2003 20:38 | ||
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| Well i make enough a month to make me happy. If it is ' rigged' or full of colluders either i am lucky or they aint very good at cheating. Isnt it about time they took my suggestion of having the ' Poker ', ' not quite poker' and ' isnt online poker rigged' options here ? Cheers Chasepoker | ||
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| Re: online poker rigged??, Slate, 25. Jul 2003 07:14 | ||
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| My observances of on-line vs B&M. There is absolutely no substitute for B&M. That is how poker was meant to be played with cards in hand, chips to toss and the most important...the interaction WITH your opponents. The tells, signs and casual conversation. On-line you have to take with a grain of salt and play for some extra curricular activity. My biggest issues with online are these. 1 - No interaction and is the pause in betting for real or a internet congestion. 2 - I loose patience sitting online waiting for people to bet since there is no other opponents to talk to or study, etc. 3 - The games are so cheap you get fish from all over. 4 - Its so easy to get mad and push a button to bet than it is to look someone in the eye and then make a bet or call. 5 - I spoke to a dealer at a casino who is into online and he says CHEATING is BIG TIME. He said he and 5 buddies would call each other up and gang up on ring games and split the money. He thought he was the only one doing it but it turns out lots of people do this. I think online has it place, but it will never replace B&M and you cannot get discouraged. On-line is a totally different play style. No from the top ten hands aspect, but from the human to human interaction. Also these online places make millions per day with the robots, a B&M has much more over head and makes a fraction of what these online places make. (from a poker perspective, not slots, etc) I will still continue to play online, but I will look at it from a different angle. | ||
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